Keeping Players in the Dark

[ways and means]

I like train they get you in the vicinity of where you want to go 8/10. 

[fantazero]

The best example I can think of, in my limited gaming experince is this

We were just starting our Dresden Game and we were all new to the system. Our GM was still getting used to Statting characters. One of our players was just freaking great at Social Conflict and discovered all these neat "tricks" you could do with it.
Our GM had made his Mooks and Villains tough physically, but had no mental or social armour/stresses.
So our "Talker" character was able to clear a room of Thugs by taunting them basically. While neat, it didnt fit thematically.
So during the next encounter, he basically said (Told us after the fact) I just gave them all an extra stress box for mental and made their defense a 3 (up from 0). Some would call this "Cheating"

So for example, this guy is saying I want to create a twist in my game where a character turns out to be a Mole.
So if you have a bunch of Wizards and stuff, running around this can be hard to keep things from them. So you cheat.
By cheat I mean. Cheat. Your PC wants to Roll Empathy of your Mole. You pay him a fate chip to not do it. Your PC wants to Rolls Empathy, but wait before he can Ninjas attack. Your PC wants to Roll Empathy, but finds nothing, turns out Part of the Moles Memory is missing due to fairy magic, or a Spell. Or Damn, your PC wants to Role empathy on your Mole, your Mole suddenly has a taggable aspect "Secret Secret  are no fun..." and a Stunt that gives him +1 to deceit. Or you roll the dice and say "What did you get?" and then add 1 to whatever they said.
As long as the players dont KNOW you are doing it, who cares? The only time I've seen this go badly is when I had a GM want my character to get beat up in prison. My total was an 7 (+3 and a 4 is fists) he came up with an 8. I knew it was bullshit and he knew it was bullshit and I had my table ask me about it afterwards.
I mean are you guys stating out every little skill and power for NPCs? Even in the books they say something around the lines of Kincaid is +5 guns +4 Athletics, and everything else is a 3

I guess what I'm saying is what fun would it be if you show up 1st session an hour into gameplay you roll empathy, you beat by 1 and you find out the guy is a traitor you kill him THE END.

[Mr. Death]

Any scenario that would be completely undone by a good roll right at the start of the game is a bad one to start with.

That said, just uncovering that he is a mole wouldn't be the end of things anyway--whatever he's the mole for "kill him" won't stop whoever he's working for, and you'd want to get information out of him first. And he'll try and turn tail and run. Uncovering the mole right off the bat can be the basis of the scenario, not the end of one.

As far as my game goes, I figured they'd root him out or he'd show his hand eventually. He's not the big bad of the scenario anyway.

[fantazero]

Any scenario that would be completely undone by a good roll right at the start of the game is a bad one to start with....

I think this is where we disagree . What I've see a lot of is Meta-Gaming from players (wizards soul gaze or use the sight on EVERYTHING) . You meet someone you should trust, why would automatically start thinking they are being dishonest aka rolling empathy.
I've seen some creative dice rolls make a campaign better.

[UmbraLux]

So you cheat.
By cheat I mean. Cheat.

As mentioned previously, I have ethical issues with this. 

But we've derailed this thread enough.  There are plenty of methods to foster surprise without cheating.

[noclue]

I think this is where we disagree . What I've see a lot of is Meta-Gaming from players (wizards soul gaze or use the sight on EVERYTHING) . You meet someone you should trust, why would automatically start thinking they are being dishonest aka rolling empathy.
I've seen some creative dice rolls make a campaign better.

I seem to remember soul gazing and the Sight packs a big punch. There's a reason Harry does it sparingly.

[Mr. Death]

Soulgazing and the Sight are supposed to be tough stuff. Recall that when Harry tries to use the Sight to assess what's after him in Turn Coat, he blows a gasket in his brain. They're not supposed to be a quick answer to anything like that.

[Sanctaphrax]

What I've see a lot of is Meta-Gaming from players (wizards soul gaze or use the sight on EVERYTHING) .

That's not metagaming. That's just suicidal.

You meet someone you should trust, why would automatically start thinking they are being dishonest aka rolling empathy.

You should roll Empathy whenever you want to work out what makes someone tick. I do it all the time, and I don't really fear trickery.

[Richard_Chilton]

A note on meta-gaming - it's not always bad.

Amber Diceless Role Playing has a section on how to play Elder Amberites.  With perhaps one exception they are all hundreds (if not thousands) of years old.  One has spent millennia improving his mastery of combat, strategy, and personal combat to the point where he can explain to godlike beings "you only thought you were immortal".  A few have done reality nothing with their long life spans but most of them have spent centuries scheming against each other.

Since most GMs aren't centuries old (or have spent most of that time scheming how to get the throne if their immortal father happens to leave it) there is no way that they can accurately portray someone who has.  But the game gives advice on how to deal with this situation: When the players do something that the GM hasn't anticipated he should determine if the NPCs would have anticipated it and then move the game on accordingly.

The same method also works for elder vampires and other master minds.

You (the GM) might not have anticipated that the players would zag that way - but Marcone would.  Harry would have sized them up and beat money that they would zag that way - and laid a trap for them.  Countless other NPCs would have done a better job of predicting the PCs' actions than you did.  So is changing your plans meta-gaming or is it just giving the players freedom?

Richard