Powers = Tools ?

[ways and means]

And that's why I feel you "consider setting material to be meaningless".

The full write up for ACAEBG does not exist.  It was not included in the rules.  We can guess at the power costs (because it's included in an IoP) but those are only guesses.  I think that the RAW suggests that items that have the ACAEBG power:
1) Can only be wielded by a "Righteous man" (i.e. someone with the Champion of God template) OR by playing a FATE chip to temporarily use the IoP.
2) Should only exist in Earth moving IoPs such as the Swords.

These limitations are not explicitly stated in the RAW because the power does not have its own writeup.  If it did, then I believe that it would have those extra crunchy bits added - much like how the RAW say that Warden Swords can only be made by Luccio.

But if you want to look at powers away from the setting, then here's a question about Thaumaturgy:
How many Thaumaturgy steps does a wizard need to repair the damaged caused by Domination in order to return a Renfield to his old self?

Personally, I'd say that you can't, that no human has the knowledge or power to do either.  It might be that certain ancient and powerful Fae know how to do that, but the most legendary wizard in history (the original Merlin, founder of the White Council) couldn't do it nor could any of the Saints who have tried.

The setting material says it can't be done (any more than an angel can exercise freewill) but the rules for Thaumaturgy is silent on the matter.  If you feel that the silence means that it can be done, then we are back to why I feel that you "consider setting material to be meaningless".

Richard

Personally I wouldn't stop someone who wanted to be a champion of a Old One (they are God's afterall) being one even if he isn't righteous and wielding a ridiculously powerful relic that could have all the trade marks of a sword of the cross. 

[devonapple]

The full write up for ACAEBG does not exist.  It was not included in the rules.  We can guess at the power costs (because it's included in an IoP) but those are only guesses.  I think that the RAW suggests that items that have the ACAEBG power:
1) Can only be wielded by a "Righteous man" (i.e. someone with the Champion of God template) OR by playing a FATE chip to temporarily use the IoP.
2) Should only exist in Earth moving IoPs such as the Swords.

These limitations are not explicitly stated in the RAW because the power does not have its own writeup.  If it did, then I believe that it would have those extra crunchy bits added - much like how the RAW say that Warden Swords can only be made by Luccio.

I agree that this is a good point. I feel it to be problematic to take a trapping out of its original context, make it into its own power, and then argue that you can do whatever with it because it was not worded in a way that prohibits it. It is an example of a setting-specific item, and wasn't given the same treatment as a standalone power. For a good reason: because it is part of the setting.

While custom powers are totally alright by RAW, I think you have to take care when modifying pre-existing, established, setting-specific game elements the way ACAEBG is being treated.

[devonapple]

Isn't it?  My understanding is Evil Hat intends to distil DFRPG into an open FATE 3.  They've got a fairly good start.

It isn't. There's no Open Game License in the document. Just because it's a start doesn't equate to the actual legal copyright decision that needs to be made when designating anything OGL.

And even if pieces of content *from* DFRPG have made it into Evil Hat's FATE 3.0 Open Content rules offerings, that isn't the entirety of of the DFRPG system.

I was wrong. I failed to find it on my previous search, but it is there. Sorry.

[Richard_Chilton]

Looking at the front of the DFRPG:
There is an open game license - but:

Any material found in this book which is not directly taken from the
above named works is deemed to be product identity.

Which means (to me at least) that everything that the DFRPG adds to the FATE system is not OGL material.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Fluff is important, but not to conversations like this one. We're talking about whether you can use the system with different fluff, here. So the default fluff is obviously irrelevant.

I mean, bringing peace to the middle east is important too. But nobody sensible is going to include it in this discussion.

Except I just did. Oops.

Anyway...ACaEBG says nothing about being usable only by righteous people or by people with Items Of Power. This might just be because it was left out, but that's unimportant because the balance problems with ACaEBG have nothing to do with people who are not righteous or not using Items Of Power. They have to do with using sources of extra damage.

Even if ACaEBG was explicitly limited to people of good moral character using magical items, it would have exactly the same problems.

PS: What does the OGL have to do with anything?

[Richard_Chilton]

Anyway...ACaEBG says nothing about being usable only by righteous people or by people with Items Of Power. This might just be because it was left out, but that's unimportant because the balance problems with ACaEBG have nothing to do with people who are not righteous or not using Items Of Power. They have to do with using sources of extra damage.

Have you seen the complete ACaEBG write up, or are you taking what you think the power should look like?

The RAW gives a trapping of an IoP that can only be used by those with a pure heart (and linked to the Champion of God Template) that is fueled by focusing the Faith of billions.  That's the ACaEBG I'm taking about.  Dismissing all of those linked thing is what breaks the power.

Because no one sat down and said "Let's make a ACaEBG power".  They sat down and decided to try to model the Sword of the Cross from the DV.  They were working on a total package, not a trapping, just as they worked on Glamours and not Seemings.

PS: What does the OGL have to do with anything?

That was in response to another conversation.  If I follow things right, someone suggested that DFRPG must be a generic system (like FATE 2.0) because there's an OGL in the book.  I don't think that the "OGL means it's generic" argument holds water.  Beyond that, ,y read of the wording of that license is "we are using something from an OGL system but everything we make here is either ours or Jim's or the artist's".

Richard

[devonapple]

Looking at the front of the DFRPG:
There is an open game license - but:

Yeah, I'm not sure why my text search failed before. Mea culpa.

[Mr. Death]

I'm of the agreement that ACAEBG isn't a power. It's a trapping of a power. The power is "Sword of the Cross."

[Tedronai]

I'm of the agreement that ACAEBG isn't a power. It's a trapping of a power. The power is "Sword of the Cross."

Read the Item of Power entry in the Powers section, and get back to us when you're espousing a position that is not patently absurd.

[Sanctaphrax]

The RAW gives a trapping of an IoP that can only be used by those with a pure heart (and linked to the Champion of God Template) that is fueled by focusing the Faith of billions.  That's the ACaEBG I'm taking about.  Dismissing all of those linked thing is what breaks the power.

Nope!

What breaks the power is using it on something with a big weapon rating. An IoP powered by massive Faith can totally have a big Weapon rating, especially if it's picked up by something with Strength. (Given that Susan uses a Sword at one point, this is obviously possible.)

OGL argument sounds silly to me.

Tedronai's being needlessly rude about how IoPs work, but he's right. Item Of Power is a Power that attaches to other Powers. In order for an Item Of Power to give ACaEBG, ACaEBG has to be a Power.

Your approach would be sensible, but it's not compatible with the rules we have.

Unfortunately, as aforesaid, the Sword still has problems even if you don't put ACaEBG anywhere else.

[Richard_Chilton]

Your approach would be sensible, but it's not compatible with the rules we have.

We do not have a full set of rules for ACaEBG.

Just out curiosity - how many refresh does it take to an Aspect to an IoP?

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't understand what you are saying.

How much does it cost to do what with an Aspect and an IoP?

And what I said in your quote doesn't actually have anything to do with ACaEBG. It has to do with the way that Items Of Power work.

[Richard_Chilton]

How much does it cost to do what with an Aspect and an IoP?

An example might help:
The Decoy Beacon IoP:

• it is what it is - a beacon on Castle Anthrax.
[0] indestructible - possibly because no one has ever bothered trying.
Aspect - Tended To By 8 Score Maidens
Aspect - Guarded by Naughty Zoot
Aspect - Placed Above a Sea of Temptation
[-2] Glamours - The Beacon casts a Seeming on itself so that it appears to be the object of a quest.

[+1] One-Time Discount

How much would the above object cost? I.E. can someone grant an IoP permanent Aspects for free?

And what I said in your quote doesn't actually have anything to do with ACaEBG. It has to do with the way that Items Of Power work.

Simply possessing the Item of Power is not enough to use the abilities. Rules just be followed, bargains must be made.

I believe that the line above covers the suggestions I made.  You pick up an item that has ACaEBG and you aren't a Champion of Faith OR that faith is extinct? Then simply possessing it is not enough to use the abilities.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

Aspects are generally free.

Glamours does not work that way.

The usage requirements of Items Of Power vary from item to item.

Even if ACaEBG requires that you be pure of heart, etc, (which is silly because that does nothing to address the problems with the power) it's still a Power and not a trapping of another Power.

Also, there's no solid reason to believe that faith is the only way to get a Sword-like item. The Swords got their power that way, but another item could get its power another way.

And I reiterate: the problem here has nothing to do with the narrative behind ACaEBG. A saintly Christian hero has the exact same problems with the power's balance as everyone else does.

[Richard_Chilton]

Aspects are generally free.

Permanent aspects that you can tag are generally free on equipment?

Glamours does not work that way.

A fairy can't cast a Seeming on a beacon to make it look like the Holy Grail?

Also, there's no solid reason to believe that faith is the only way to get a Sword-like item. The Swords got their power that way, but another item could get its power another way.

What other faiths have Billion+ believers AND a link to something like the crucifixion (with the nails) to focus their belief?

And I reiterate: the problem here has nothing to do with the narrative behind ACaEBG. A saintly Christian hero has the exact same problems with the power's balance as everyone else does.

Three saintly heroes in the world can use that power - which is why they are on the heavy hitter chart.  They don't have to be Christian - agnostic will do as long as they are men (or women) of Faith.

A narrative that says: "There are up to three people in the world who can use this power, only in the cause of good, and only if they've first invested 5 refresh in the Champion of God template before buying that IoP." is a sever limit on the power.

Which is why some of us embrace templates so closely.  Without them you have "My HC is a Guy with Claws and ACaEBG" type characters running around.

Richard