Powers = Tools ?

[devonapple]

If someone says "Can I take Evocation, ACaE, and Domination on one character" you can say with absolute confidence "Yes, either play a Scion or make a template for it" and then maybe add helpful things like "but ACaE doesn't mix very well with Evocation or things like Inhuman Strength, so here are some alternatives your GM might prefer" or "but Domination is difficult to use in actual play, if you want mind-invading powers you might find a modification of Incite Emotion more your speed".

And here is where the community comes in.

You *could* say yes, but you, as a GM, are not obligated to.

Edit: also, to make sure I'm crystal clear on this - are folks advocating lifting the ACaEBG trapping from the Sword of the Cross and treating it as a -3 Refresh power? Or just making an alternate version of the Sword of the Cross (like the Spear of Longinus)?

[Viatos]

And here is where the community comes in.

You *could* say yes, but you, as a GM, are not obligated to.

That's a helpful thing that the community could say, definitely. But if they ask for the RAW, the RAW is "yes". "Yes, but" is of course a courtesy to the player and his GM both. To be clear, there are mixes I would personally not advocate and explain my reasoning against if I saw them, including my own example. It just wouldn't be reasoning based on "the RAW says no".

Edit: also, to make sure I'm crystal clear on this - are folks advocating lifting the ACaEBG trapping from the Sword of the Cross and treating it as a -3 Refresh power? Or just making an alternate version of the Sword of the Cross (like the Spear of Longinus)?

Both, actually. "Alternate version" also includes artifacts not powered by the White God - a tooth of Ferrovax, an Unmaking from a Faerie Mother, the scythe of Death, et cetera.

[devonapple]

Both, actually. "Alternate version" also includes artifacts not powered by the White God - a tooth of Ferrovax, an Unmaking from a Faerie Mother, the scythe of Death, et cetera.

Yeah, alternate versions, maybe. Trying to untangle elements from the Sword of the Cross and make something else? I'd have to see your math first.

Edit: excuse me, your RAW math.

[Viatos]

Yeah, alternate versions, maybe. Trying to untangle elements from the Sword of the Cross and make something else? I'd have to see your math first.

Edit: excuse me, your RAW math.

True Aim and ACaEBG have a combined cost of -4 Refresh. True Aim must be at least -1 and thus ACaEBG cannot be higher then -3. Given that True Aim is exactly designed (notably more powerful then a stunt, but with two moderate drawbacks, must use *that* weapon and must be in accordance with purpose) according to the RAW guideline for building a -1 power, assigning the remaining -3 to ACaEBG is logical.

Costing it at LESS then -3 seems like a really bad idea, since you'd be overcosting True Aim and since ACaEBG is so effective.

EDIT: Holy is, as Sancta notes, a subject of some debate. Holy Touch is a -1 power, and saying Holy is free complicates that.

[Sanctaphrax]

Richard, the system is not strongly tied to the setting. It's a fairly generic game, all things considered. You could use it for almost anything.

I know this, because I've written up characters from other settings in the game. They work well.

But honestly, even if canon was important, I'm not really sure what it would have to do with the topic at hand here.

We are treating ACaEBG as a -3 Refresh Power because given the -5 cost for IoPs and the presence of Holy and True Aim, that's the cost that makes the most sense. It could also be a -4 Refresh Power if you think that Holy is free, but that's not terribly relevant right now.

[devonapple]

True Aim and ACaEBG have a combined cost of -4 Refresh. True Aim must be at least -1 and thus ACaEBG cannot be higher then -3. Given that True Aim is exactly designed (notably more powerful then a stunt, but with two moderate drawbacks, must use *that* weapon and must be in accordance with purpose) according to the RAW guideline for building a -1 power, assigning the remaining -3 to ACaEBG is logical.

No, they have a combined Refresh of -5 (as Sanctaphrax points out). Edit: sorry, didn't realize you had costed "Holy" as -1 and quietly dropped it from the equation.

YS 168: "Discount Already Applied. As an Item of Power, the sword already includes the one-time discount (page 167). This means that if the character possesses more than one Item of Power, the one-time discount will not apply on that second item. If the Sword of the Cross is the second or subsequent artifact the character gains, the refresh cost is –5."

The Item of Power discount for the Sword is -2, not -1, because it is big and bulky.

Also, the "Divine Purpose" trapping is a clear limitation, but provides no listed deduction. So the isolated Refresh value of ACaEBG could be as high as -4 to -6.

Also, some of these things were balanced based on narrative impact and not just point balance. Do you know why Warden Swords are Enchanted Items and not Items of Power? Because no Warden could afford them otherwise.

[Sanctaphrax]

Divine Purpose is just compels. It does not provide a rebate.

-4 is the upper end of what ACaEBG can cost.

Also, narrative balance is a terrible thing. Warden Swords, honestly, are more narrative than I like.

[Richard_Chilton]

But honestly, even if canon was important, I'm not really sure what it would have to do with the topic at hand here.

We are treating ACaEBG as a -3 Refresh Power because given the -5 cost for IoPs and the presence of Holy and True Aim, that's the cost that makes the most sense. It could also be a -4 Refresh Power if you think that Holy is free, but that's not terribly relevant right now.

I'm looking at the stated mechanics behind the power.  The Swords work the way they do because they focus the belief of billions.  I see that amount of belief (or something with the power to duplicate that sort of belief) to be necessary for the power to work.  As a prerequisite before someone could spend the refresh for it, a bit like how being a True Fae is a prerequisite to having Greater Glamor. 

Yes, the "True Fae" prerequisite is explicitly stated in the power, but ACaeBG doesn't have its own power write up.  It's given an effect of a certain item of power, not it's own power (which is why we don't have an official cost for it).

Speaking of the point cost, how many positive refresh is Divine Purpose worth? It disqualifies large chunks of the population from using it - Marcone couldn't.  The average gangster couldn't.  I don't think that the average person walking the street could swing a sword with a "true selfless purpose".  With anger" Sure.  In revenge? Of course.  But use a lethal weapon on another a "true selfless purpose"? I don't know if I would be capable that except in the weirdest circumstance.

And even those people who can generally use it can have each use of the Sword examined.

Is that sort of restriction worth +1? +3? Because each point of refresh it is worth is another that can be added to the cost of ACaeBG.

Richard

[devonapple]

Also, narrative balance is a terrible thing. Warden Swords, honestly, are more narrative than I like.

It is what it is. It's in the book, it's RAW. You don't have to like it, but if the RAW drum gets beat, it gets beat for those, too.

[Viatos]

No, they have a combined Refresh of -5 (as Sanctaphrax points out).

If Holy is not meant to be equivalent to Holy Touch, a -1 power, which wouldn't make sense considering they do the same thing. If Holy were free, why would Holy Touch exist? You could just declare yourself Holy.

Also, the "Divine Purpose" trapping is a clear limitation, but provides no listed deduction. So the isolated Refresh value of ACaEBG could be as high as -4 to -6.

All Items of Power have these. Check the basic template - you unmake an item by perverting its purpose, and holding an IoP is not enough to use it. You need to follow rules and make deals...like, say, a Divine Purpose. It's not a rebate, it's part of the package.

Also, some of these things were balanced based on narrative impact and not just point balance. Do you know why Warden Swords are Enchanted Items and not Items of Power? Because no Warden could afford them otherwise.

No, Warden Swords are Enchanted Items because someone had an idea they thought was cool and someone else wasn't paying attention during editing. They make no sense within the rules. You shouldn't get a +6 Lore item without +6 effective Lore, or the system stops working. "I'm part of an ancient order of riflemages who get AK-47s that make Weapon:12 attacks against any three zones of my choosing." I'd never allow a player who couldn't make a Warden Sword to have a Warden Sword, and it would always cost appropriate slots.

By RAW it's there, yes. Can't fight city hall. Warden Swords for every PC with Channeling or better. Just note that you found one or killed a Warden or made out with a Warden or whatever.

[devonapple]

No, Warden Swords are Enchanted Items because someone wasn't paying attention during editing. They make no sense within the rules.

Bold statement.

[Viatos]

Bold statement.

I realized. Updated to clarify. Warden Swords make me really angry because everything else was going so nicely on my first read of DFRPG, but whatever. It's not Exalted Zeal, at least.

TL;DR I don't always like the RAW, but I'm not afraid to call my houserules houserules.

[Mr. Death]

You can't dismiss a rule you don't like as "someone wasn't paying attention." Especially when they clearly were, as evidenced by the margin comments addressing your exact complaint.

[ways and means]

Is that sort of restriction worth +1? +3? Because each point of refresh it is worth is another that can be added to the cost of ACaeBG.

Richard

Wow if we assumed the purpose thing was worth a rebate (a disadvantage which isn't all that disadvantageous for the sort of character that would own such a weapon) and you applied it to other IoP that could be quite broken especially the +3 (+5 total rebate more than the difference in refresh between the weakest and the strongest template). I like that idea a lot

Also Warden Swords are Enchanted items because they are enchanted items aka item enchanted by magic, yes they for some reasons get an unfair exception to the normal crafting rules but that is clearly an example of narrative taking precedence over mechanics.

[Viatos]

You can't dismiss a rule you don't like as "someone wasn't paying attention." Especially when they clearly were, as evidenced by the margin comments addressing your exact complaint.

It's my most charitable interpretation of how that passed printing.

The sidebar isn't even helpful. "Comes with job responsibilities" except it doesn't, no Must: Aspect or note that only Wardens can have them. They're limited in supply and only get GIVEN to Wardens. Great. But Wardens die, lose things, offer their loved ones some tangible form of protection...there's another bit of commentary I really wish had a rule attached.