Author Topic: Powers = Tools ?  (Read 49198 times)

Offline Viatos

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2012, 08:33:03 PM »
How do people feel about this approach?

I don't lay out anything. I work with the players as they build and gain more Refresh. If something comes up that appears to be problematic, I talk about that specific thing.

I will even work with a player who wants to go outside template. If they want to start as a Wizard in a Chest-Deep game but eventually be cursed as a werewolf so they can play with Beast Change and the like, I'll work with them to arrange that. So long as they don't harm game balance and I can make narrative sense of it within the Dresdenverse (which, as a kitchen sink, is very easy - look at Harry, he's crossed at least five or six templates and maintained multiple of those at the same time) it's all fair game. Whatever's fun.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2012, 09:26:08 PM »
Um, until Changes Harry had only had the Wizard Template - then (since Changes is beyond the game I'll spoiler it)
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Offline Viatos

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »
Um, until Changes Harry had only had the Wizard Template - then (since Changes is beyond the game I'll spoiler it)
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I guess those are the only templates proper. He's also been
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2012, 10:08:33 PM »
I don't lay out anything. I work with the players as they build and gain more Refresh. If something comes up that appears to be problematic, I talk about that specific thing.

I will even work with a player who wants to go outside template. If they want to start as a Wizard in a Chest-Deep game but eventually be cursed as a werewolf so they can play with Beast Change and the like, I'll work with them to arrange that. So long as they don't harm game balance and I can make narrative sense of it within the Dresdenverse (which, as a kitchen sink, is very easy - look at Harry, he's crossed at least five or six templates and maintained multiple of those at the same time) it's all fair game. Whatever's fun.

In my experience some players need the structure.  I'm glad you found people that don't.  That's not a slight or an insult or incredulous at all.  It's honest. 

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2012, 10:21:53 PM »
I guess those are the only templates proper. He's also been
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In order:
He wasn't possessed.  At most he gained an Auspect ("Lash's Host") as opposed to taking the nickelhead template.
Wizards can tap sponsored magic - which is one of the things that make them so versatile.
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Looking at OW where it charts his advancement I don't see him picking up powers that don't fit the Wizard's Template.

Note: generally the spoiler tag is only used for things beyond the scope of the game (i.e. the books and short stories not listed in the game).  Aftermath, Changes, Ghost Story, and Even Hand are the ones it currently covers - but once Paranet updates the setting it will only cover Ghost Story and beyond.

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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2012, 11:03:16 PM »
What nickelhead template, Richard?
I thought you were of the opinion that the existence of custom templates equated to 'house rules'.  Was there a miscommunication, here?
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:58 PM »
What nickelhead template, Richard?
I thought you were of the opinion that the existence of custom templates equated to 'house rules'.  Was there a miscommunication, here?

Okay, now this just looks like baiting.

Nickelheads/Denarians are a canonical creature/faction in the setting. They vary so wildly in power that a template would be hard to develop, but not impossible. That and they tend to not have free will anymore. So while there may not be a RAW template on the books in YS or OW, they exist, we kinda know what they should be capable of (a lot), so it's not the same as inventing, say, an Ice Cream Elemental.
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Offline Viatos

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2012, 11:40:38 PM »
Well, we also know that there are flying monkeys who throw flaming dung and can combine to form Voltron Kong. And after the chlorofiend I'm not sure an ice cream elemental would be out of place.

Offline Locnil

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2012, 03:44:18 AM »
Well, the way I read the books, it seems like Mr Butcher and Evil Hat went out of their way to develop a setting where literally anything is possible.

Also, about limiting powers to your template only, I'ld just like to note that from a certain point of view, you can justify just about anything with "Wizard".

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2012, 08:03:39 AM »
That's what I'm talking about. The power has to come from somewhere. Something powerful enough to let a mortal bring down a Dragon has to come from something extremely powerful.

If all you need is to spend 3 refresh to be able to bypass every single defense in the game without consequence, restriction, or anything limiting its use beyond spending one fate point, then I ask you, why would anyone ever not take the power?

I like the latter point, I use it often to demonstrate that something is undercosted or unbalanced.

Which is what you've demonstrated here. (As stated before, the power needs to be prevented from being used with massive damage effects.)

But the former point is problematic. You see, what constitutes an appropriate justification for a power is not something that should be dictated. It should be left up to the people playing.

Would you allow someone to have ACaEBG with the justification that their attacks were actually aimed at the target's Fate? I would, it sounds cool.

Would you allow someone to have ACaEBG for no clear reason, with the source of the character's abilities intentionally mysterious? I would, it'd be a good plot hook.

But you don't have to allow those things if you don't want to.

This subjectivity is a big part of the reason that such things should not be dictated.

Because 3 Refresh is the same cost as Thaumaturgy, or a bunch of cool Social Stunts, or Spirit Form? Not everyone is looking for what it does. It's not even useful to the average "hunter" character because you could get more effective abilities for dealing with lesser horrors for the same Refresh. It only really starts to pull its weight once we're talking Mythic levels of defense. It's a power I expect on dragonslayers, not everyone.

ACaEBG negates mundane armour. That's very useful.

But the basic point is sound. Those 3 points could be spent elsewhere. Possibly better spent, depending on character and circumstance.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2012, 12:06:16 PM »
I like the latter point, I use it often to demonstrate that something is undercosted or unbalanced.

Which is what you've demonstrated here. (As stated before, the power needs to be prevented from being used with massive damage effects.)
Yes. It's unbalanced if you take it out of its normal context (used by an otherwise-non-powered Mortal, putting aside the Faith powers of the template because as I recall none of them affect damage or defense)

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But the former point is problematic. You see, what constitutes an appropriate justification for a power is not something that should be dictated. It should be left up to the people playing.
Agreed. But it should still be there.

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Would you allow someone to have ACaEBG with the justification that their attacks were actually aimed at the target's Fate? I would, it sounds cool.
With an appropriate reason for how someone can actually aim at Fate, yes (probably some ancestry or sponsorship by a major deity of some kind).

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Would you allow someone to have ACaEBG for no clear reason, with the source of the character's abilities intentionally mysterious? I would, it'd be a good plot hook.
Definitely yes--but it should be in someone's mind where the power comes from, and the source of that power should come into play.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2012, 12:12:27 PM »
Definitely yes--but it should be in someone's mind where the power comes from, and the source of that power should come into play.

Not in one of my games. I'm fine with making something up later. And if it never comes up, then whatever. No damage has been done.

See, this sort of benign difference between players is the second-biggest problem with such narrative requirements. I'm not playing the game wrong here. The game shouldn't get in my way.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2012, 02:29:40 PM »
Not in one of my games. I'm fine with making something up later. And if it never comes up, then whatever. No damage has been done.
See, this sort of benign difference between players is the second-biggest problem with such narrative requirements. I'm not playing the game wrong here. The game shouldn't get in my way.

Bolded section: You may well be in the minority.  Rules should not be written and costs changed just for your games.  You can house rule the cost in your games if you like.

Underlined section: Not wrong, but very possibly contary to intent of creators.  Please keep in mind I said possibly.  Very much outside the setting the rules are based on.

Pretty sure that's why games have rules.  To balance and limit players.  In that sense all games have rules that get in the way. 

I'm done discussing my opinion on the topic, it is clear where the opinions stand.  it is also clear people aren't changign their mind.  I hate to be the guy saying this all the time, but talking in circles is no more productive than not talking.

Offline Viatos

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2012, 03:03:44 PM »
Bolded section: You may well be in the minority.  Rules should not be written and costs changed just for your games.  You can house rule the cost in your games if you like.

Er, he's the one NOT advocating house rules - game as written, they're unnecessary. You would need a houserule and a setting alteration to STOP someone from taking ACaE on a Faerie Knight. I would suspect the majority of people use the game mechanics as designed and written, which would put Sanctaphrax in the majority.

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Underlined section: Not wrong, but very possibly contary to intent of creators.  Please keep in mind I said possibly.  Very much outside the setting the rules are based on.

No, it's perfectly in-setting. There is absolutely no narrative contradiction because it's just a power, it can be reskinned to model parts of the setting without changing anything.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Powers = Tools ?
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2012, 03:34:02 PM »
Er, he's the one NOT advocating house rules - game as written, they're unnecessary. You would need a houserule and a setting alteration to STOP someone from taking ACaE on a Faerie Knight. I would suspect the majority of people use the game mechanics as designed and written, which would put Sanctaphrax in the majority.

No, it's perfectly in-setting. There is absolutely no narrative contradiction because it's just a power, it can be reskinned to model parts of the setting without changing anything.

I do not feel that is factual in all circumstances, even in the game.  I know only Swords of the Cross have this function in the Dresdenverse.  Therefore it is not  canon setting the game is based on.  I feel you express your opinion as fact.  It is clearly not.