Powers = Tools ?

[Silverblaze]

This never happens, though, since custom and reskinned powers are not more powerful on non-template characters. It's not an issue. Person C never feels unhappy, and goes on to have a great game with Person A and B, if his only concerns are how powerful his character is.

If he has narrative issues with Person B's Blue Court Vampire, that's a different thing entirely. Person C should probably lighten up in that case, since Butcher has noted there are several smaller Courts he hasn't introduced, and since in a kitchen-sink setting it's hardly unreasonable to make up your own breed of vampire.

EDIT: Also, let's please not throw the term munchkin around. It's as insulting and pointless as calling narrativists "drama queens". Understanding how to play a game well does not need a perjorative. Being good at chess doesn't make you a munchkin, and neither does being good at DFRPG. It's a skill, not a failing.

If someone uses that skill to be disruptive to the party, that's another thing entirely.

Well, the same way you help any player who's falling behind - ask them if they'd like help, and offer guidance as to how they can play more effectively. I have never actually had this problem in FATE, but it comes up a lot in systems with notoriously wonky balance like DnD. Roleplaying games do require skill and intelligence, but usually not too much.

And, of course, you can always make use of forums like this one to improve your playing.

I do have a question, though: what powers do you use to represent the cannon archetype? Channeling (Artillery)? I think a sentient cannon would be an interesting character, but I'm not really sure how you'd define them beyond the moment of bombardment.

I actually was surprised that Mouse doesn't have All Creatures are Equal. I think that would have been much more elegant then Sacred Guardian.

This does happen in our current game.  The disagreements between players A,B, and C. for, for hte most part those very reasons.  I'm speaking from experience not just pulling random scenarios out of thin air.  So obviously it can/does happen.

I'll only keep using the term munchkin (though I did differentiate between malignant and benign ones) as long as I get trolled for typos.  Seems I struck a nerve with the munchkin phrasing.  Yeah my nerve got srtuck also.  I really don't care for my intelligence to be insulted due to typographical errors. 

I feel I should apologize howver, sicne this is the least civil I've ever been on here.  This place is generally free of most of the trolling and flaming most forums devolve into and I hope it can stay that way for the most part.

[Viatos]

This does happen in our current game.  The disagreements between players A,B, and C. for, for hte most part those very reasons.  I'm speaking from experience not just pulling random scenarios out of thin air.  So obviously it can/does happen.

Well, your responsibility as a GM is to make sure custom powers are appropriately designed and areas where the system is weak are shored up. If you give me examples of where you're having problems, I can offer you my advice on how to deal with them.

Restricting things to canon archetypes DOES NOT PRODUCE A BALANCED GAME. Wizards are far more powerful then other archetypes - four times a fight (much more with consequences and enchanted items), they can produce nearly any effect imaginable at 7 to 12+ shifts of power, depending on how they're built. Nobody can keep up with that combination of overwhelming power and freeform versatility except another wizard. White Court Vampires can destroy incredibly powerful enemies in a few exchanges with mental assaults; they get to ignore all Toughness powers and attack an area in which only dedicated spellcasters have a good defense (and even then, they have an offensive advantage). A shapeshifter can't keep up in combat with either of them, even with more room for stunts and powers. These are totally canon characters!

[Haru]

For me, Powers and Templates are both tools. I want to portray a character, and I should be able to describe the character with his aspects and the story behind them. If a power can not be derived from the aspects, and if the aspects just don't fit together, something is off and I would tell the player to go back to the drawing board.
Harry's "Wizard Private Eye" aspect pretty much sums up his powers: he's got the powers of the wizard template, plus stunts to round out his private eye part. The same goes for everything else, if the powers and the aspects don't harmonize, the character is going to feel off.

On the whole, I am not so much concerned about how a specific power is represented mechanically, as long as it fits the characters style. The faith powers for example are all very much different than most other powers, because you have to spend a fate point for most of them to work. But if you take into account the way a true believer should behave, it makes perfect sense. He is (usually) working in a strict code, resulting in all kinds of compels, but in return he can call upon a higher power to aid in his struggle against the darkness.

I actually was surprised that Mouse doesn't have All Creatures are Equal. I think that would have been much more elegant then Sacred Guardian.

On the contrary, it is way more fitting this way. ACAEBG is an outside power, the white god is leveling the playing field for his champions. Sacred Guardian on the other hand is an inherent power of the Temple dogs, because of what they are and where they come from.

Of course any power taken should be within the powerlevels of other powers. Which I think is totally in line for Sacred Guardian. Channelling let's you do pretty much exactly that, only at a much more efficient rate. Sacred Guardian is less efficient, so it costs less. The catch satisfying part might be pretty powerful, but at the end of the day, I don't see it being that big a deal. But I have not had a foo dog in a game, I might be wrong.

Templates represent canon archtypes.

Hmm, I would have to disagree here. To me, the aspects (especially the high concept) represents the archetype. You usually are a "Warden of the White Council" or a "Werecat investigator" or things like that. The main traits of the archetype are defined in this concept. The reason I would not stop there, is that I would also allow things like "Wereparrot Wizard" or "Werewolf by night, Sylph changeling by day". They are not allowed if you strictly keep to the templates in the book, but they could be fun to play, so if a player would come to me and asked to play something like this, I would look at my toolbox (aka the powers list) to see how we may manage to realise such a concept.

[Silverblaze]

Maybe archtype is the wrong word then.

However, templates represent what types of things we see in the novels. (Fae and Vampire courts, Scions, Denarians, knights of gof knights of Fae and so on.)  This helps create the setting the game takes place in. Use what word you prefer for this.

[Tedronai]

And that setting not only allows for, but DEMANDS that custom templates be available, templates which, as they are not currently represented in the RAW, may have need to appropriate powers from other templates that would otherwise have a sole claim.

[Locnil]

Exactly. Limiting people only to what have appeared in the books makes the game a lot more boring.
And besides, it's hardly a good fix. Jade Court Vampires, Raksasha, and Scions, just to name a few examples, do not have clearly defined abilities. Even if you limit templates to only those in the RAW, munchkins can still play a scion of some weird, obscure being and get whatever powers they want that way.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not saying that a reflavored power has to have the same description--just an equivalent one.

Are you trying to say that reflavouring can make a power stronger? Or is it that people who reflavour in ways that you dislike are playing wrong?

Because both are completely false.

I meant in the books there's a part where Mouse does something that makes him able to hit supernatural creatures harder. The "like St. Elmo's Fire" just describes what it looks like.

There's got to be some reason that Nicodemus is scared of Mouse, and I doubt it's his ability to be an alarm clock on demand.

But that has nothing to do with Sacred Guardian. Sacred Guardian cannot harm Nicodemus.

(Swords Of The Cross can, though, which probably isn't how it is in the novels.)

Sacred Guardian is less efficient

Not so. At least, I think it's not so.

Restricting things to canon archetypes DOES NOT PRODUCE A BALANCED GAME. Wizards are far more powerful then other archetypes - four times a fight (much more with consequences and enchanted items), they can produce nearly any effect imaginable at 7 to 12+ shifts of power, depending on how they're built. Nobody can keep up with that combination of overwhelming power and freeform versatility except another wizard. White Court Vampires can destroy incredibly powerful enemies in a few exchanges with mental assaults; they get to ignore all Toughness powers and attack an area in which only dedicated spellcasters have a good defense (and even then, they have an offensive advantage). A shapeshifter can't keep up in combat with either of them, even with more room for stunts and powers. These are totally canon characters!

The point is correct, but the examples are bad.

Other character types can compete with wizards. They're very strong, but not necessarily the strongest thing around. White Court Vampire is a weak template. Shapeshifters can be pretty hardcore.

[Mr. Death]

Are you trying to say that reflavouring can make a power stronger? Or is it that people who reflavour in ways that you dislike are playing wrong?

Because both are completely false.

I'm saying that powers, like the ability to completely negate any toughness power at the cost of only one fate point, should have adequate justification for working within the fiction. If the powers were meant to just be cost vs. effect, that's all that would be listed and the Sword of the Cross wouldn't come with a whole list of guidelines for how a character could and couldn't use it.

But that has nothing to do with Sacred Guardian. Sacred Guardian cannot harm Nicodemus.

(Swords Of The Cross can, though, which probably isn't how it is in the novels.)

I'm assuming that's just referring to the second line, otherwise I'd have to question why you think an ability Mouse has in the novels to hit things harder with his spiritual abilities has nothing to do with the ability on the Foo Dog's character sheet that lets them use their spiritual abilities to hit things harder.

You don't know that Nicodemus is immune. His Fallen may very well count as a "spiritual creature" that would fall prey to Mouse's abilities.

(And I'd say there's a good chance the Swords can, in fact, get through his invulnerability in the novels--again, there's a good reason he keeps trying to destroy the things, and why the prospect of facing Shiro gave him pause.)

[Viatos]

I'm saying that powers, like the ability to completely negate any toughness power at the cost of only one fate point, should have adequate justification for working within the fiction. If the powers were meant to just be cost vs. effect, that's all that would be listed and the Sword of the Cross wouldn't come with a whole list of guidelines for how a character could and couldn't use it.

Swords are Items of Power, which have agendas.
All Creatures are Equal is a power, which does not.

[Silverblaze]

All this talk about templates and powers and balance brings up a question.

A player presents a concept/custom template with a fantastic background and personality; not to mention great aspects - that you as GM think would provide great compels and story complications/fodder... do you think about the implications it can have in the long term on your game?

This is more about me trying to gauge how people think, than anything else.

My example: would be a mortal shapeshifter/nephalim

reasoning: could be a very well written and roleplayed character.  Would also have a huge pool of powers to choose from (most in the book/s could be justified).  I would be inclined to allow the character into a game, but I would be concerned about what it could evolve into.

My Solution: Lay out a loose template including whatever reflavouring needs to be done (which with this particular concept [ not a lot of reflavoring would be required]).

  Divide powers available into 3 categories.

Yes: Powers that make perfect sense for the character to have and should have some of at the beginning.

Maybe: Powers that make sense but aren't immediately justifiable or powers that could easily unbalance the character in the game

No: Powers that barring fantastic explanation or in game reasons that arise as the game moves forward are barred from the character.

How do people feel about this approach?

[toturi]

Other character types can compete with wizards. They're very strong, but not necessarily the strongest thing around. White Court Vampire is a weak template. Shapeshifters can be pretty hardcore.

Spellcasters can be very powerful if given time to prepare. WCVamps can be very powerful psychic attackers, they can do it without prep and can do it all day long, whereas wizards have limited ammo. Shapeshifters run the gamut though; Beast Change type shifters aren't really all that powerful IMO, but True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities are very versatile and loses only to spellcasters in terms of versatility but beat them hands down in terms of prep time and usage frequency.

[Mr. Death]

Swords are Items of Power, which have agendas.
All Creatures are Equal is a power, which does not.

Correction. All Creatures are Equal is a power that is part of the Sword of the Cross (and described as pretty much the whole purpose of the Sword of the Cross), which has an agenda.

Or are you saying that you would allow someone to take a power that lets them completely ignore, at will, any and all supernatural toughness as well as mundane armor, without any justification beyond "I just can, okay?"

That's what I'm talking about. The power has to come from somewhere. Something powerful enough to let a mortal bring down a Dragon has to come from something extremely powerful.

If all you need is to spend 3 refresh to be able to bypass every single defense in the game without consequence, restriction, or anything limiting its use beyond spending one fate point, then I ask you, why would anyone ever not take the power?

[ways and means]

Spellcasters can be very powerful if given time to prepare. WCVamps can be very powerful psychic attackers, they can do it without prep and can do it all day long, whereas wizards have limited ammo. Shapeshifters run the gamut though; Beast Change type shifters aren't really all that powerful IMO, but True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities are very versatile and loses only to spellcasters in terms of versatility but beat them hands down in terms of prep time and usage frequency.

My Opinion of the templates in Order of Power

Wizards/ Sorcerers  
Thaumaturgist are broken given prep time and imagination (and a lax gm).
Evocators who have invested in one element are overpowered in physical combat on the fly (if you allow mental stress even more so).
Both tools are versatile and powerful making the Wizard the most powerful template (sorcerers get less refinement options).

Scions/Changeling
Lots of choices of power and room for maneuver, a Scion/Changeling can focus very effectively and can be brilliant one trick ponies this would be lower on the list if it wasn't for Sponsored Magic being pretty effective usually more so than Channeling.

Focused Practitioners
Evocation Power allows domination of physical combat (if you allow mental stress doubly so) at much lower refresh than a wizard (but which peaks earlier).
Focused Thaumaturge can be very powerful and game breaking, depending on the GM summoning could go from game breaking to mediocre (from what we saw of binder it should be very strong) and crafting focus is one of the most powerful builds in the game.
 
Shape-shifters
Shape shifter can be brilliant social bunny with high contacts and resources and also be a brilliant melee fighter which makes them far more versatile than any other canon concept except for perhaps a well built changeling/scion or a wizard who seriously abuses thaumaturgy. 

White Court Vamps
Could be very effective as a mental canon but very inefficient refresh wise as the bulk of a white courtiers powers are purely physical and give very little benefit to mind magic.

[Viatos]

Correction. All Creatures are Equal is a power that is part of the Sword of the Cross (and described as pretty much the whole purpose of the Sword of the Cross), which has an agenda.

No correction necessary. As I said, ACaE has no agenda, the Sword does.

Or are you saying that you would allow someone to take a power that lets them completely ignore, at will, any and all supernatural toughness as well as mundane armor, without any justification beyond "I just can, okay?"

Nah, they'd need a little justification, like "I'm a were-Temple Dog" or "My distant dragon ancestry lets me channel the all-devouring flame something something quantum mechanics something something primal forces of the universe" or "The Horseman of Death has chosen me as its servant and casual girlfriend" or "I am the Horseman of Death". But then, everything needs a little justification. I'd ask about Inhuman Strength on an otherwise normal character too.

ACaE is fine by itself; it gets into trouble interacting with other things that boost damage. At that point, I usually talk to the player about why that would be bad for the game and how we can preserve the concept and feel they want without specifically using that power. Stunts that allow more damage to certain targets or in certain situations tend to be the go-to.

If all you need is to spend 3 refresh to be able to bypass every single defense in the game without consequence, restriction, or anything limiting its use beyond spending one fate point, then I ask you, why would anyone ever not take the power?

Because 3 Refresh is the same cost as Thaumaturgy, or a bunch of cool Social Stunts, or Spirit Form? Not everyone is looking for what it does. It's not even useful to the average "hunter" character because you could get more effective abilities for dealing with lesser horrors for the same Refresh. It only really starts to pull its weight once we're talking Mythic levels of defense. It's a power I expect on dragonslayers, not everyone.

[ways and means]

Really once you have your holy iron great-swords powered by true faith (got to love aspects) in the God of Battles and your spare silver dagger given to you by your dad you are pretty much covered for the majority of monster you will ever have to face without ever spending a point in powers.