Powers = Tools ?

[Mr. Death]

I'm still confused as to how ignoring context (which is what allows things like Sacred Guardian and ACAEBG to be used on things other than Foo Dogs and Knights of the Cross) is promoting balance, while retaining context (which is what would keep those two powers from combining) promotes munchkining.

Is it really that terrible to look at a power that's described as something a Foo dog can do, not listed anywhere else, and appears to be an entirely custom power for the foo dog, and saying, "You know, I think it's only supposed to be on foo dogs."?

Are we using two different definitions of munchkin, perhaps? You seem to be working from the definition that a Munchkin is someone who creates a ridiculous character concept to justify his power set. I don't think the narrative is what makes a munchkin; to me, a munchkin is someone who decides powers based solely on their benefit, regardless of the context and narrative justifications of those powers.

[ways and means]

Is it really that terrible to look at a power that's described as something a Foo dog can do, not listed anywhere else, and appears to be an entirely custom power for the foo dog, and saying, "You know, I think it's only supposed to be on foo dogs."?

It is not a bad thing to assume what ever you want, though I would disagree with the logic that just because something only shows up once in the book means that it is unique in world.

[Locnil]

Even if context became part of the argument, unbalanced powers are still unbalanced.

So let's say Sacred Guardian was amended to only work for Food Dogs. Except, when someone builds a custom power, that power is usually based off existing powers. That's the recommended approach. So what's to stop our friend A.Munchkin from taking a power exactly similar to Sacred Guardian, but only works for minitiarized giant space hamsters instead, or whatever bullshit concept he's trying to sneak past the table? Granted, the GM could just say no way, but in that case, there would be no point in restricting Sacred Gurdian anyway, since the GM wouldnt allow it even without that note.

Personally, I think Sacred Guardian should just be rewritten. Foo Dogs []ishould[/i] have a power like it, but it should cost a lot more.

As an aside, I'm not entirely sure it's out of context, exactly, to allow Sacred Guardian to apply to social and mental conflicts. If hat was intended, though, then yeah, it should cost a hell lot more.

[Silverblaze]

It is not a bad thing to assume what ever you want, though I would disagree with the logic that just because something only shows up once in the book means that it is unique in world.

So by that logic.  Other people should be able to use :

The Bark?

[Locnil]

Werewolves can have an equivalent called The Howl. Wizards, Blast of Power, to represent what the Merlin did to calm down the Council in Summer Knight. Werehyenas, The Laugh. That's the point he was trying to make, I think.

[Silverblaze]

Yeah.

Yeah, I know.

I just don't know what to think honestly.

I feel like Dr. Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park.   "Yeah, but your scientists

(click to show/hide)

(gamers)

were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

That is what I feel like.  It is a very apt statement that aplies to this so much...and life in general I suppose.  Dr. Ian Malcom should be named a Saint.

[Locnil]

And it especially applies to playing in Exalted.

To be honest, though, in this situation the solution seems simple. Leave it to the table if adapting a certain power would be good or bad. Especially for games that aren't quite default, which seems to be a lot of them.

In a campaign that focuses on the Humanity Fuck Yeah aspect of the Dresdenverse, a team of characters munchkined for combat and toting Sacred Guardian and Swords of the Cross would be expected, even if such characters would be banned on other games. On the other hand, campaigns that focused on Fight Smarter, Not Harder instead, would definately not allow such characters, but the amount of stuff they'd let their thaumaturgists and Superb Resources & Contacts powerbroker get away with would be considered insane.

P.S. Note that all example are just examples.

[Silverblaze]

Curious.

How much should a PC cost a Foo Dog to have the following powers?

Ability to use tools -?
Walking upright -?
Human Speech-?

I need refresh costs.

[Locnil]

No change in refresh. They are just swapped out for greater strength, improved sense of smell, and a natural coat of fur to protect from cold.

Ability to use tools, in particular, would be exchanged for a set of sharp teeth.
Walking upright is changed to walking on fours, allowing greater intensity of speed and increasing ability for stealth & camouflage.
Human speech is changed to pack instincts and maybe the ability to better communicate with others of it kind. Also, compels.

If you are that keen to play a Food Dog with all those, just play a were-Foo Dog. Human Form rebate is exactly enough to cover Beast Change.

[Tedronai]

Ability to use tools -?

None.  Note even -0.  Buttloads of compels.

Walking upright -?

None.  Note even -0.  Maybe a compel once in a blue moon.

Human Speech-?

None.  Note even -0.  Buttloads of compels assuming that the character doesn't have equally effective means of communication.

[Mr. Death]

Curious.

How much should a PC cost a Foo Dog to have the following powers?

Ability to use tools -?
Walking upright -?
Human Speech-?

I need refresh costs.

Beast Change and Human Form would do that job.

Also, it just occurred to me that in my Mega Man X-themed game, one of the characters had something that works a lot like Sacred Guardian (though I didn't realize it at the time), but a little more limited. He got a +1 to both the attack roll and weapon stress at the cost of one "Mental" stress, but additional "Mental" stress only boosted the Weapon rating further, not the attack roll. The power cost -2, but only because it had an additional trapping of allowing Telekinetic maneuvers rolled from our equivalent to the Conviction score. All in all, at a 10-12 refresh game, it worked out fairly well.

Something like that might be a good alternative to the canon Sacred Guardian, because I agree with Locnil, Foo Dogs should have something like that because we've seen it used in the canon.

[Locnil]

Like I said. Anyone up for a game where everyone is a were-Foo Dog?

On the subject of compels though... I'ma little leery of using them in that manner. After all, If it's a valid compel, giving you fate points, for simply being unable to do something your concept doesn't support... taken to the logical extreme, it's going to get a little silly.

[Mr. Death]

The problem with enforcing those things solely with compels is that compels can be bought off. So if you compel the foo dog to say "You can't talk," and they pony up the fate point to buy out of it, what then? A sudden onset of "What boy? Toot Toot's stuck in a well?"

[ways and means]

So by that logic.  Other people should be able to use :

The Bark?

Wouldn't surprise me if hellhounds also had a version of the bark or black dogs or spectral hounds or scions of Cerbrus etc

[Silverblaze]

I was kinda hoping peopel would just say "play something that already walks on two legs..."

Ah well, the answers we still useful.  Thanks.


This all leads me to one major question though.

I seriously don't understand and honestly am looking for answers here.

If you can modify every "race" (fae, vampire, foo dog, uh...human..etc.) why ever play the base ones at all?  Why play a Fae that has a catch of iron?  Why not just play a human with glamours?  Why play a white court who feeds on emotions, when you cna just play a mutant who can incite lust or fear?  Then you don't have to worry about True Love or Courage shutting you down or protecting people.

I know the narrative isn't supposed to serve a purpose in game balance, but.. it seems it does.  If you step far enough from the narrative and setting there are no limits.  Ergo, there is no game balance.

If someone wants everythign a Foo Dog does but wants to be a person...your first instinct isn't to ask them why they don't wanna play a foo dog?  I know the were form food dog works, in fact i like it but...

I apply the KISS and duck principles as well as occam's razor.

Keep it simple
if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...you get the picture
the simplest solution is usually the right one.

You can say this hampers creativity and to some extent it does...but at some point... ask yourself why use the setting at all?