An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Richard_Chilton]

Why not?  Couldn't your past have been hidden, even from yourself?  If I go through life thinking I'm a pure mortal and never using power does it matter whether or not both parents were pure mortal?

I'm sorry, but what part of the setting would allow an adult PC to discover that he was a White Court Vampire?

Richard

[UmbraLux]

I'm sorry, but what part of the setting would allow an adult PC to discover that he was a White Court Vampire?

Doesn't it do exactly that?  It's been a while but I seem to remember one or more of the Raiths being manipulated until they killed accidentally.

Mechanically, if they never use powers hunger doesn't apply.  So not an issue.

But it's really what your group wants in the game.  The above is just one possible interpretation, certainly not the only one.

[Becq]

While I still side with the "Pure Mortals lack supernatural aspects" camp in general, I disagree that a character can only take on the Changeling template at character creation.  I think it's entirely reasonable and within the spirit and rules of the game for a character to enter play as a Pure Mortal, then 'discover' his heritage in play (probably involving the character tapping into Fae potential in a moment of stress).  Before this point, the character was technically a Changeling, but with his Fae potential completely untouched could legitimately be counted as a Pure Mortal.

What's the difference, then, between a Pure Mortal who might someday uncover latent Changeling blood and a Changeling with -0 refresh worth of powers?  The High Concept is the difference.  The Changeling, even with no powers whatsoever can call upon his Changeling High Concept to do perform amazing feats.  A character who's (admittedly dull) high concept was "Janitor" might have trouble lifting the heavy beam trapping his friend, but if he was a "Janitor with Troll blood", the situation changes.  At the very least, the character could count on an extra +2 by invoking his high concept, but further he has a solid justification to borrow Inhuman Strength as a temporary power or even simply add it permanently to his sheet.

Or, to put it another way, "The pie isn't an apple pie as soon as the crust is formed; it becomes an apple pie only after the crust is filled and it's baked".  :p

As for WCVs, my take is that if all WCVs started life with the WC Virgin template, then 100% of them would become fully blooded WCV within minutes, hours, or at most days after birth as they killed their human parent out of desperate hunger.  I would play it that they are Pure Mortal at least until puberty, then swap out to the WC Virgin template and gain the WCV version of the Choice.

[Richard_Chilton]

Doesn't it do exactly that?  It's been a while but I seem to remember one or more of the Raiths being manipulated until they killed accidentally.

Yes, White Court Virgins are sometimes treated that way.

Mechanically, if they never use powers hunger doesn't apply.  So not an issue.

That doesn't fit with the setting - how the demon drives the young members of the White Court.   Inari was being driven by her demon even when her relatives weren't messing with her mind.

To quote:
"White Court vampirism is a hereditary condition, passed along when interbreeding with humans, always breeding true. But the condition doesn’t truly take hold until the “virgin” White Court vampire has killed for the first time with his emotion-feeding abilities."

That doesn't sound like Pure Mortal to me.

Richard

[UmbraLux]

Shrug.  It's an area I think can be fairly gray.  The section you quoted even states "...the condition doesn’t truly take hold until the “virgin” White Court vampire has killed for the first time with his emotion-feeding abilities."  What doe the phrase "truly take hold" signify? 

Honestly it doesn't seem that important to me.  It falls into the area of "err in favor of the player" in my book.  YMMV.

[toturi]

Re: Richard - The initial impression that I got from reading this thread was that there was little differentiation between Aspects, whether they may be temporary or permanent, there was mainly discussion on the Aspect's "supernatural"-ness. There was some discussion on the High Concept in relation to the character template, but not any of the other permanent Aspects. Hence my earlier questions.

I was under the impression that your Guest star Aspects were assigned to you by the other players. It is how we did it locally. So even if you didn't have a "supernatural" Aspect as part of your self-assigned Aspects, you could still get one from your "Guests".

[Richard_Chilton]

Shrug.  It's an area I think can be fairly gray.  The section you quoted even states "...the condition doesn’t truly take hold until the “virgin” White Court vampire has killed for the first time with his emotion-feeding abilities."  What doe the phrase "truly take hold" signify? 

It signifies the character is no longer a White Court Virgin, but a White Court Vampire.

I.E. they switch their templates.

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

I was under the impression that your Guest star Aspects were assigned to you by the other players. It is how we did it locally. So even if you didn't have a "supernatural" Aspect as part of your self-assigned Aspects, you could still get one from your "Guests".

The DFRPG is one that requires a cooperative narrative built between the players and the GM.  Assuming that the other players assign the Guest Star Aspects (and I can't seem to find a place that says they can't) - would the people at your table really want to screw another player's character that  way?

Would a player at your table write a Guest Story that read: "After the White Court Vampire hit Jack with blast of lust he did unspeakable things with a bunch of preteens - giving him the aspect 'Preteen Cherry Picker'"? Write a story that gets the Wardens looking for him with a death warrant? Or... well, there are countless ways to screw another player - why list more than the ones with teh biggest ick factor and the most lethal one?

If they wouldn't do that, then why would they want to make him eligible for his chosen template?

If they would do that, I don't think I'd enjoy meeting those players.

Richard
Edited to fix a typo - I left a suffix off a word

[Mr. Death]

While most of the Scion and Changeling templates might make sense for that, I'd argue that White Court Virgin in particular isn't something you'd discover out of the blue.

Being in a White Court family means that your family is, well, White Court. They don't seem the type to let a kid just 'get away' and lose track like that. So the kid's brothers and sisters would likely be White Court, and they'd have aspects out of the box to reflect that even if their powers haven't manifested yet.

White Court Virgin seems very much like the sort of character type that a player should decide on right out of the box instead of something "discovered," because of what we've seen of the court in the fiction. Inari might not have known about it in-character, but her aspects would have reflected her heritage--meaning her "player" knew where she was going from the start--from the word go.

[Tedronai]

If they wouldn't do that, then why would they want to make him eligible for his chosen template?

The 'dick move', there, is on the part of the GM interpreting the Pure Mortal template in such a (-n unjustifiably) strict manner while simultaneously adopting a (possibly unintentional) house rule that opens up characters to such jackassery.

(RAW has players pick aspects for their own characters even in the case of consequences, and certainly in the case of character creation)

[Richard_Chilton]

The 'dick move', there, is on the part of the GM interpreting the Pure Mortal template in such a (-n unjustifiably) strict manner while simultaneously adopting a (possibly unintentional) house rule that opens up characters to such jackassery.

You feel that way - but I'm not playing FATE 2.0.  I'm playing DFRPG.

What you continually call "fluff" is the difference between FATE 2.0 and the DFRPG.  It's how the setting interacts with the basic rules.  If you want to ignore everything but the mechanics that's fine for you, but the RAW say that Pure Mortals have nothing supernatural going on.

Richard

[toturi]

Re: Richard - But following your reasoning and logic, any supernatural Aspect would automatically disqualify the character from the Pure Mortal template. It shouldn't matter if such an Aspect is temporary or permanent, it doesn't matter how the character gets the Aspect then, it should only matter if the Aspect fits into the definition of "supernatural".

Thus if a Pure Mortal PC has only 1-2 Refresh, all the GM needs to do is make a Declaration to force an Aspect that fits the table definition of supernatural, and the PC's player is making a new character.

Luke - "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My sister has it."
Leia's player - "NOOOOOO! You made Leia an NPC!"

[Richard_Chilton]

There's a difference between temporary and core aspects.

For example - if someone goes to a Pure Mortal and says "Murphy, I need you to use this - just for tonight" while handing her a Sword of the Cross, then the Pure Mortal temporarily has access to an IoP and parts of the Knight of the Cross Template (someone would probably have to spend a chip or two for her to use the sword - but that's another issue).  At the end of that night the sticky aspect "welder of a Sword of the Cross" goes away (unless she decides to keep the sword, switch templates, and maybe drop a couple of stunts to balance things out).

If someone feeds a potion to a Pure Mortal, turning her to wind so that they could get away from a demon, that's a temporary thing that doesn't change the character.

If someone uses magic to give two characters the aspect "You love each other in a sexual way", then the aspect itself is not tied to the supernatural.  Hmmm, now that I think it about, I'm tempted to call that one a moderate or severe consequence...  No, that doesn't really fit the story.

But back to the core argument - we are talking about Character Creation.  Making characters that fit a Template.  Just as you wouldn't make White Court Virgin with the Aspect "Always Get Laid" you wouldn't make a Pure Mortal who wasn't a "ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—save perhaps for the company they keep or the things they’ve seen."

About switching Templates - reread the bit about Pure Mortals being able to discard stunts.

About the GM who crows "I got you! You're an NPC now! I win!" - find a new GM.  The GM as an antagonist works wells in some games, but not a collaborative one like DFRPG.

Richard

[toturi]

Re: Richard - Looking from the GM's point of view when sockpuppeting the villain, I do not see why the GM should pull any punches if it suits the villain to do so. "If you will not turn, perhaps she will!"

Following the logic of Pure Mortal not having supernatural Aspects, then not even temporary sticky Aspects should be exempt. If Murphy had less than 3 Refresh going into that situation, then by the RAW, she must be an NPC. It shouldn't matter that the aspect was temporary as long as it qualified as a supernatural Aspect.

[Mr. Death]

No. The RAW only says she'd be an NPC if she keeps those powers--and even then, the player retains control until the task they took the powers for is done.