An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[toturi]

How would he "acquire" an Aspect?

Richard

Are you asking mechanically how did he acquire the Aspect or are you asking more along the lines of story/fluff?

Mechanically I can recall several ways of doing so.

[Mr. Death]

I hope you guys aren't planning to apply the Pie bonus to pizza, because the RAW clearly states that "Pie" is a baked desert item with a fluffy crust.

[Richard_Chilton]

Are you asking mechanically how did he acquire the Aspect or are you asking more along the lines of story/fluff?

OOPS!

Sorry about that.

Somehow I saw a name that began with T and...

Aspect is a word that has several uses in the game.  During the current discussion it is being used (at least I think it is being used) as short hand for a character's Aspects.  As in the seven Aspects that are part of a character sheet.

For example: "Grandson of the Luck God" (supernaturally based) as opposed to "Lucky SOB".

Temporarily Aspects, scene aspects, etc aren't a basic part of the character - which is why Murphy's Template didn't change when she temporarily took up a role of a Knight of the Cross.

Other than choosing to change at a milestone, the only other way I can think of one of those Aspects changes is through an extreme consequence - and I don't see how one of those could force a supernatural aspect.

Again, sorry for not paying attention to who I was talking to.  Hopefully this edit will go in before you see the other response.

Richard

[sinker]

Hey Richard? You've been arguing with Tedronai and I. Toturi seems to be a newcomer to the debate with actual questions.

[devonapple]

During our discussions I have always responded to your direct questions - while you have not done the same with mine.  Please respond to the yes / no question in http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,31641.msg1381429.html#msg1381429.

Are you perhaps conflating toturi with Tedronai?

[Tedronai]

Entirely aside from the referenced question being a trap.  Any acceptable answer (being limited to 'yes' or 'no') concedes a point of contention in favour of Richard's position.
The question itself is the heart of a fallacy.

[Richard_Chilton]

Entirely aside from the referenced question being a trap.  Any acceptable answer (being limited to 'yes' or 'no') concedes a point of contention in favour of Richard's position.
The question itself is the heart of a fallacy.

I am merely quoting two of your statements.

To me they seem to be mutually exclusive statements - but maybe I'm wrong about that.  If you want to you can let me know why you don't feel that they are mutually exclusive.

Feel free to use more than one word - to say "Yes, because blah blah..." or "No, because blah blah" - but please respond to it sometime.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Quite simply, I am not positing new reasoning, rather citing existing reasoning, thus not engaging in the fallacy I pointed out in another member's contribution to this thread.

Nor is it fair to say that my position favours giving Changelings a +2 bonus to their refresh until such a time as they take their first power.  I have not been so careless as to phrase my position in that way in some time.
It is my position that they do not BECOME Changelings until such a time as they take their first power (which does not contradict their minimum refresh cost due to the existence of -0 powers).  This is in accordance both with the reasoning presented in the Pure Mortal bonus itself, which you ignore, as well as the RAI clarification YOU sought out from Fred, which you also ignore.

In support of your claim, you have...a bit of fluff.

If the answer to all of those questions is "yes", then why are you bothering to play with the DV as a setting for your game?

And this is what your argument has devolved into. 'If you don't like my interpretation of the rules, go play a different game.'

[Richard_Chilton]

The character become a changeling when he/she is born.

The same as other characters have the potential to become a White Court Vampires or White Court Virgins when they are born - or are you saying that a Pure Mortal could wake up one day and become a White Court Vampire?

Changeling may only take powers that their inhuman parent has.  Maybe I'm missing something but I can't find a single listed Fairy that has a 0 point power.

Beyond that, you seem to be ignoring the text:
"The total cost for changelings depends entirely on how deeply your character has made the Choice at the start of play, and this will change over the course of the game—that’s the point."

Not "in between adventures" or "when he meets his unnatural parent" - at the start of play.

If you want to come up with a homebrew template that lacks that sentence, fine, but in the RAW you either start as a Changeling or you can't get the Template.

Richard

[toturi]

Other than choosing to change at a milestone, the only other way I can think of one of those Aspects changes is through an extreme consequence - and I don't see how one of those could force a supernatural aspect.

Richard

Even if you do not write down any supernatural Aspects for your PC as one of the 7 character sheet Aspects, you can still have a supernatural Aspect given to you by your guest stars.

I can see how an Extreme mental consequence can force a supernatural Aspect, even if you cannot.

[Richard_Chilton]

The guest star aspects are two of the seven.  You don't get a total of 9 aspects - just those 7.

Looking at the creation rules, the other player says how you interact in their story - it doesn't say that they assign your aspect.  I can't see the table accepting "then your wizard killed a pair of Wardens with Black Magic - while letting another Warden escape to tell the tale" or other ways of consciously trying to break another player's PC.

If you feel that there is a way that an extreme consequence can force a player to take a supernatural aspect, I'd love to hear it.  And I'd also love to hear how it bypasses the part of the rules that say:

"Normally, the player taking the consequence gets to describe what it is, so long as it’s compatible with the nature of the attack that inflicted the harm. The GM arbitrates the appropriateness of a consequence and there may be some back and forth conversation before settling on one. The GM is the final authority on whether a player’s suggested consequence is reasonable for the circumstances and severity."

The only possible way I can see something like that happening is if we are talking about a spell effect...

Richard

[atavistic]

I'm going to throw out my own thoughts on how to find a split between a pure mortal and a changeling with no points in powers, and an interesting way to decide if a 'not so' pure mortal should get the +2 bonus or not.

"Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers. In exchange for this restriction, pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh."

If you read this pair of statements not as "if pure mortal then +2 bonus" but rather "if pure mortal then  may not supernatural powers.  If may not supernatural powers then +2".  If you separate out these clauses when reading the phrase "In exchange for this restriction"  then you get a nice division of why things play out the way they do.
Changelings MAY take supernatural powers, thus they don't qualify for this restriction so they don't get a +2 even if they MAY take them but CHOOSE not to.
A 'not so' pure mortal with a 'supernatural' aspect, would then qualify one way or another simply by the player saying "he'll never spend refresh on any powers," or saying "Well eventually he'll get some actual powers as he grows". 

Not saying that's they way it must be interpreted but it is a way it can be interpreted.

[Tedronai]

Up until the part where even a Pure Mortal CAN acquire supernatural Powers (and by doing so take up another template in Pure Mortal's place), that works elegantly.
Unfortuntely, the fact that Pure Mortals can acquire Powers would then, by that logic, deny even them the bonus named for them.

[Richard_Chilton]

But Pure Mortals can't acquire every template.

You can go from Pure Mortal to Red Court Infected.  You can't go from Pure Mortal to White Court Virgin.  If the character wasn't born with the White Court Demon inside them then it can't become a White Court Virgin.

Similar, if one of your parents wasn't from Fairy you can't suddenly wake up and become a changeling.

Richard

[UmbraLux]

The character become a changeling when he/she is born.

Yes...and maybe no.  (I have commitment issues. ) 

Aren't aspects "what is important to the narrative"?  If so, I might start with Oblivious Scion of the Luck God and no powers while ending as Favored Son of the Luck God with all kinds of power. 

Personally, I tend to favor the "high concept plus template determine refresh and potential powers" approach but I think the line is a bit grayer than either side's proponents seem to be admitting.  It doesn't hurt anything to start out with a refresh bonus and then lose it once you begin using power.  At least I don't think it does.   

But Pure Mortals can't acquire every template.

Why not?  Couldn't your past have been hidden, even from yourself?  If I go through life thinking I'm a pure mortal and never using power does it matter whether or not both parents were pure mortal?