Author Topic: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent  (Read 68289 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #285 on: April 16, 2012, 01:55:48 AM »
It relates to the question at hand by way of the response you yourself posted from Fred.

The handling of compels induced by player action on any character, player- or otherwise, that is not controlled by that player, is adjudicated based on a clarification of the RAI posted on these forums by Fred some time ago.  The RAW itself, interpreted strictly, does not make that ruling clear.

This case is much the same.

The RAW contains seemingly contradictory statements, or at least statements that lead various individuals respectively to mutually exclusive conclusions.
We have RAI clarification from Fred that, if implemented, resolves the seeming contradictions.
And yet, after having yourself been the cause of this clarification, you have ignored it in your further discussions of this issue, even, at times, when confronted with it directly by others on this thread.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #286 on: April 16, 2012, 02:09:12 AM »
The handling of compels induced by player action on any character, player- or otherwise, that is not controlled by that player, is adjudicated based on a clarification of the RAI posted on these forums by Fred some time ago.  The RAW itself, interpreted strictly, does not make that ruling clear.

The intent of that rule did not need clarification.  Only those who dwelt on the minutia of the phrasing needed that clarification.  I refer you to the long discussion that happened in the lead in for the...

I'm sorry - I have no idea what you mean by RAI.  I've searched the net and I can't come up with a meaning.

But that was another long, one-side debate where someone was dwelling on the parsing of particular sentences while ignoring others.

And yet, after having yourself been the cause of this clarification, you have ignored it in your further discussions of this issue, even, at times, when confronted with it directly by others on this thread.

Go ahead and point out anywhere in the RAW that say that Changelings should get the Pure Mortal bonus.  Rather than say that, the Template explicitly says that playing a character whose powers change over time is the point of playing a changeling.

Rather than point to past debates, how about addressing why you feel the need to ignore the line:
"Pure mortals are ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—save perhaps for the company they keep or the things they’ve seen."
in the Pure Mortals Template.

Richard

Edited to add:
Just to be clear, you are talking about the thread at http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24061.0.html - right?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 02:54:57 AM by Richard_Chilton »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #287 on: April 16, 2012, 04:12:45 AM »
RAI is an acronym meaning 'Rules As Intended' as opposed to RAW's 'Rules As Written'.

There were, truly, three interconnected issues being debated in the thread you linked, collectively adressed by Fred in a single clarification, but the one I mentioned was among them, yes (the others being whether a Free Tag can accomplish tasks beyond a +2 bonus or a reroll, and whether a Compel triggered by way of a Free Tag awards a FP if accepted).

My point in bringing it up is in highlighting the precedent for RAI being stated on these forums by Fred, and in determining whether you accept such rulings in cases other than this one (where you clearly dismiss it).
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #288 on: April 16, 2012, 04:37:21 AM »
Again, that thread wasn't about something unclear.

I never had a problem understanding that rule.  The RAW was the same as the RAI.

Merge the understanding of what a tag is (a free invoke) with the language about compelling other aspects on I believe YS107 and I believe the findings are clear.

I agree with the statement above.  Why do you disagree?

As for Changelings with +0 powers, the logic behind them NOT having +2 refresh is in the RAW.
"The total cost for changelings depends entirely on how deeply your character has made the Choice at the start of play, and this will change over the course of the game—that’s the point."

Saying that "oh, Changelings should get the +2 because..." is... Hmmm, let me find a quote:
Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy.

Richard

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #289 on: April 16, 2012, 04:51:50 AM »
And STILL you gloss over the very quote that you yourself posted from Fred.

Address it, or admit that you are ignoring it on the basis that it would undermine your position.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #290 on: April 16, 2012, 05:07:36 AM »
Fred said that, mechanically you are a Pure Mortal until you take powers.  He never said that all concepts mesh with the Pure Mortal template or that certain Aspects didn't imply a level of supernatural connection that precludes the "Pure mortals are ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—save perhaps for the company they keep or the things they’ve seen." requirement of the Pure Mortal Template.

As for dancing around - you haven't said categorically that a character that has the Changeling Template should get the refresh bonus until they buy that first power.  You've heavily implied it, but you haven't come out and said it.

Probably because your position of "Attempting to posit new reasoning for its existence to support a conclusion denied by the existing, official, explicit statement, is fallacy."

So, are you embracing the fallacy that Changelings get a +2 refresh until they buy their first power?

Yes or no?

Richard

Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #291 on: April 16, 2012, 05:49:23 AM »
Really Richard, there are a couple of reasons why I choose to overlook the statement you mention (or at least prioritize other statements above that).

Firstly (and the least compelling reason) it's fluff. I know that in this game (and many others) that can be important, but I guess I've built a bias when it comes to things like this. If something isn't part of the crunchy sections I tend to assume that it's simply description and that it has little impact on crunch.

Secondly what Fred said there seems to have a clear meaning to me. He said that you're pure mortal till you buy powers. I would choose to apply that to changelings too.

Finally I look at this from my perspective as an experienced gamer, GM and game designer (we all design to some extent). If we have two characters who are mechanically identical I prefer to treat them identically. If someone chooses to add to the story and make it richer I choose to reward them (or at the very least not penalize them). I think otherwise you stifle creativity, lose potential investment and drama, and anger the players. The players trust me to treat them fairly, and I really take that trust seriously.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #292 on: April 16, 2012, 06:06:10 AM »
"Champions of God are among the rarest of mortal humans, actively called to service by the Almighty (in one of many possible guises) to stand against the darkness and beat it back with the strength and light of their faith. They are very few in number, usually limited to the three Knights of the Cross."
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

"Changelings are half-human, half-faerie people who—at least for the moment—are still living life as mortals. But before each changeling, every day, stands the Choice, a razor’s edge dividing their mortal nature from their faerie nature. When they call upon the abilities of their faerie blood, they—bit by bit—push themselves closer to becoming full faerie.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

"Emissaries are mortals who’ve been saddled with a burden of great power—and great responsibility— by one of the big dogs in the supernatural community: vast powers from Faerie or the outer reaches of the Nevernever, one of the true dragons, or something stranger."
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

Focused practitioners are the minor-league of the spell-slinging set. They have one rather narrowly defined aptitude at spellcraft which they practice to the exclusion of all else—usually because they just don’t “get” things outside of their focus.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

As far as we know, both Courts of Faerie—Winter and Summer—each have only one Knight, a mortal granted some measure of the power of his or her patron Court and charged with making certain the Court’s interests are well-represented in the world of mortals and beyond.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

Let’s get this clear up front: lycanthropes are not werewolves—though they share some traits in common. But where werewolves change their bodies, lycanthropes change only their minds, aligning their thoughts and senses with those of a beast.
Is this fluff or the core of the Template?

The Dresdenverse is filled with mortals who have small, limited powers, whether due to long-forgotten traces of inhuman bloodlines, exposure to the supernatural, or simply the right combination of willpower and belief. These mortals can be referred to as minor talents: people with “one-trick” powers that might not have a lot of mojo—but which can be very effective in the hands of a creative and driven individual.
Is this fluff or the core of the Template?

Red Court vampires—nasty bat-things that live inside an apparently human (and typically gorgeous) flesh-mask, drool addictive narcotic venom, and feed on blood—are able to infect humans, putting them on a potentially inevitable path towards becoming a full-on Red Court vampire. These infected individuals possess some of the same capabilities as the monsters that bit them—at least at a “junior varsity” level. But these victims haven’t turned—they haven’t given up their humanity—yet. Not until they kill, though that often comes fast, as an almost uncontrollable hunger for blood grips them. Still, it’s only almost uncontrollable—with the right amount of discipline and careful choices about what sorts of  situations they get into, these victims can hold out, at least for a time.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

“Sorcerer” is a near-pejorative term that many on the White Council use to describe “full spectrum” spell practitioners who don’t have the bloodline, access, resources, and training that a Wizard of the White Council has. The sneer has perhaps a little merit, as these versatile spellslingers are often self-taught or—let’s face it—at least dabbling in some grey, if not outright black, areas of magic in order to get a leg up. This fairly common moral flexibility turns into a slippery slope in short order.
Is this fluff or the core of the template - and if fluff then what is the difference between minor talent, sorcerer, and wizard?

Faith has power in the Dresdenverse, where the strength of your belief can—when focused properly—turn back the tide of darkness. There are special mortals among us whose beliefs are so strong that they cross into the territory of true supernatural power. These mortals are called true believers, for lack of a better term.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

The Dresdenverse is rife with shapeshifters of all stripes (many nonhuman). Some humans have learned (or were simply born with the capability) to take on the form of a beast; when that beast is a wolf, we call them werewolves, but there are many other were-forms out there. The animal in question isn’t supercharged or innately magical (other than the fact that it has a human intellect kicking around in its noggin), but with some practice, the shapeshifter can use it as easily as his human form, within the limits of what that animal can do. Unlike lycanthropes, loupgaroux, and some other types of shapechangers, most were-form shifters are entirely in control of their change. There’s no full moon business going on with us.
Is this fluff or the core of the Template?

Of all the known vampire courts, the White Court vampires appear to be the weakest—but they are no less deadly. They are also the closest to mortals in behaviors and predilections. They might best be seen as a separate race, able to interbreed with humans (White Court vampires are born, not made—it’s hereditary). They feed on the strong emotions of their victims—sometimes, though not always, to the point of death—and they can excite these emotions in their victims as well.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

White Court vampirism is a hereditary condition, passed along when interbreeding with humans, always breeding true. But the condition doesn’t truly take hold until the “virgin” White Court vampire has killed for the first time with his emotion-feeding abilities. Unblooded White Court virgins do not have the weaknesses of full White Court vampires, making them difficult to detect.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

The full wizard in action is a terror to behold. His is an ancient bloodline, heir to the magics of old and able to command their full array; given enough time and preparation, there is very little to limit what a wizard can accomplish beyond the fetters of his own belief in what he can do.
Is this fluff or the core of the template?

If the answer to any of those questions is "not fluff", then why are you ignoring the core of the Pure Mortal template?

If the answer to all of those questions is "yes", then why are you bothering to play with the DV as a setting for your game?

Or, to put it another way, no part of the Template is fluff.  The Template is the Template as a whole and focusing on a single line in one template is as wrong as saying "there are four grains of sand on the beach".

Richard

Offline Becq

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #293 on: April 16, 2012, 11:47:31 PM »
So, who all likes pie?  I do...

Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #294 on: April 16, 2012, 11:58:08 PM »
Hey, me too! :)

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #295 on: April 17, 2012, 12:44:28 AM »
I think we have finally arrived at a consensus:
Pie is good.

Richard

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #296 on: April 17, 2012, 01:13:50 AM »
Cobbler is better!


<Ducks for cover.>

 ;)
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Offline toturi

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #297 on: April 17, 2012, 03:24:59 AM »
If a Pure Mortal PC were to acquire a "supernatural" Aspect (in the sense that counts for whatever definition of such an Aspect you have), would he lose his Refresh and if such a loss result in a Refresh of 0 or negative Refresh, make him an NPC?
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #298 on: April 17, 2012, 03:32:52 AM »
If a Pure Mortal PC were to acquire a "supernatural" Aspect (in the sense that counts for whatever definition of such an Aspect you have), would he lose his Refresh

Not according to Fred.
RAW is, obviously from the 20-page debate, of two minds about this.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #299 on: April 17, 2012, 03:58:30 AM »
If a Pure Mortal PC were to acquire a "supernatural" Aspect (in the sense that counts for whatever definition of such an Aspect you have), would he lose his Refresh and if such a loss result in a Refresh of 0 or negative Refresh, make him an NPC?

How would he "acquire" an Aspect?

The only way that springs to mind is for the player to decide to change an Aspect during a milestone.  I would strongly suggest that a player not do so, at least not without making a conscious choice to adopt a new Template.

If a Pure Human character becomes a RCI, permanently acquires an IoP, becomes an Emissary of Power, or otherwise acquires one of the Templates that can be acquired - that's a player's choice.

Converting from a Pure Human to another Template is covered in the RAW.  The suggestion is to drop one or two mortal stunts to mitigate the lost of the +2 refresh.

Richard