An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Mr. Death]

Depends on what "losing" them means. If they just misplace the IoP but can take it up again in short order, no. If they lose it in the sense that it doesn't belong to them anymore, I'd say yes.

Basically, Michael didn't get the refresh back when Harry lost the sword for him in Grave Peril; but he did when he put it in Harry's care following Small favor.

[Tedronai]

by canon, if they [...] will eventually display) Wizard-level talent, they will also be found to have always had [-0] Wizard's Constitution.

Can you please provide a definitive reference for this?

[devonapple]

Can you please provide a definitive reference for this?

Wizard's Constitution is part of the Template for Wizard. If someone evolves their character into a wizard, that power is required.

[Tedronai]

This does not require that the individual involved will 'have always had' Wizard's Constitution.
It requires that they take Wizard's Constitution upon 'upgrading' to the Wizard template.

[Mr. Death]

There's also some Word Of Jim somewhere that a wizard's longevity has a lot to do with them actually using magic--so someone who hasn't used magic yet wouldn't necessarily have it. So Kid Harry wouldn't have always had it, and Charity probably would have lost it when she let her magic atrophy.

[Tedronai]

Charity probably would have lost it when she let her magic atrophy.

If she ever had it in the first place.  Charity is not described as having White-Council-level power.

[devonapple]

There's also some Word Of Jim somewhere that a wizard's longevity has a lot to do with them actually using magic--so someone who hasn't used magic yet wouldn't necessarily have it. So Kid Harry wouldn't have always had it, and Charity probably would have lost it when she let her magic atrophy.

Cool - I'm afraid I was mistaken about how they were handling the causality on that. That is me corrected!

[Becq]

If a Pure Mortal were to have a supernatural aspect, for example, "Very minor magical talent" that is not his High Concept, would he lose his Pure Mortal status?

Edit: In other words, if a Pure Mortal has a you-know-it-when-you-saw-it supernatural aspect (but without gaining any Powers), would he lose the Pure Mortal status?

My answer would be that a Pure Mortal is someone without anything supernatural going on -- at least internally.  If the character is a Minor Talent (or Very Minor Talent, or Really Extremely Minor But Still Talented Talent) then he is that, rather than Pure Mortal.  Think of the description "a little bit supernatural" as working a lot like the description "a little bit pregnant".

What happens if a vanilla mortal (Pure Mortal) loses all of their powers or IoP?  Would they get back, even if only temporarily, their +2 Refresh?

Well, first off a Pure Mortal doesn't have any powers or IoP to begin with.  But if, say, a Bearer of the Almighty Doodad (a custom template featuring an IoP and nothing else) were to lose that item for good, then they would have a good argument for changing their Template from Bearer of the Almighty Doodad to Pure Mortal, which would involve changing their HC (and also the IoP-linked aspect, if different from the HC), removing the IoP from the sheet, and gaining the +2 refresh for being a Pure Mortal.  This assumes a permanent loss; if the loss is temporary, then the character is going to be raking in Fate from the compels against the IoP-linked aspect, instead.

[Silverblaze]

Depends on what "losing" them means. If they just misplace the IoP but can take it up again in short order, no. If they lose it in the sense that it doesn't belong to them anymore, I'd say yes.

Basically, Michael didn't get the refresh back when Harry lost the sword for him in Grave Peril; but he did when he put it in Harry's care following Small favor.

His holy powers would have precluded the +2 anyhow.  I see your point though.  Yeah, I meant a permanent loss.

[sinker]

I'm curious now, if people are ok with custom templates, and we can all agree that the refresh bonus is a function of the pure mortal template, would people be ok with other custom templates that included the refresh bonus?

[Silverblaze]

I'm curious now, if people are ok with custom templates, and we can all agree that the refresh bonus is a function of the pure mortal template, would people be ok with other custom templates that included the refresh bonus?

Yes;with a large caveat.

Caveat: I don't see a point in other templates that don't have powers.  I'd just call it Pure Mortal.  If the Pure Mortal wanted a plot where it turned out they had a secret parentage and were willing to change High Concept and template to acquire powers I'd be ok with that.

I'm fairly easy going about stuff if a good reason is presented.  I'm also all about keeping stuff simple...so most custom templates would just be Pure  Mortals...most likely.

[toturi]

Devon/Becq: So would you apply this definition and limitation of no supernatural Aspects for Pure Mortals to any and all Aspects that a Pure Mortal PC has?

[Haru]

Like I said earlier, the basic (and binding) templates for me are "Pure Mortal" and "Supernatural character". Every template in the book except pure mortal of course falls under supernatural character, but from that point on I only see them as a suggestion. If you want to do a were form that also has channelling, go for it. It is the "jack of all trades, master of none" effect at work, if you can do too many things, you will probably not be perfect at any of them. The only real must I see is a high concept that sums up the character in a few words, along the lines of the requirements of the actual templates.

I would not create a new template that adds a bonus similar to the pure mortal bonus. In the course of this discussion I thought of a template that would cut the bonus in half, but I decided against it. Becq said it best with his "a bit pregnant" analogy.

[Becq]

Yes;with a large caveat.

Caveat: I don't see a point in other templates that don't have powers.  I'd just call it Pure Mortal.  If the Pure Mortal wanted a plot where it turned out they had a secret parentage and were willing to change High Concept and template to acquire powers I'd be ok with that.

I'm fairly easy going about stuff if a good reason is presented.  I'm also all about keeping stuff simple...so most custom templates would just be Pure  Mortals...most likely.

This.

While I haven't gone out of my way to consider the subject, I can't think of a template concept that (a) is sufficiently mundane that it deserves the Pure Mortal bonus AND (b) is sufficiently different from Pure Mortal that it deserves a distinguishing name.

I suppose if you were playing a more Space Dresden version of the game you might have an Alien template, or if you were playing it more Fantasy Dresden-style, you might have Elves and Dwarves and such.  Assuming the template was 100% mundane (and didn't have infra-vision or such), then it would qualify for the Pure Mortal bonus.  But then, how would it not simply be Pure Mortal with a racial-themed HC?

Do you have something specific in mind?  I'd be happy to run it through the Duck Test for you...

Devon/Becq: So would you apply this definition and limitation of no supernatural Aspects for Pure Mortals to any and all Aspects that a Pure Mortal PC has?

Probably.  Though as I said, I differentiate between "supernatural you have control over" and "supernatural you are merely associated with".  So it's perfectly fine for a Pure Mortal to have "I know a Wizard" aspects and to use the aspect as (for example) an excuse to access Temporary Powers per the rules.

But, again, I'll stress that this is my perspective; if you disagree I'm not going to raid your game and "make you play it right".  I might try to evangelize a bit and convert you to my way of thinking, though...  Oh, wait, I've already been doing that!  :p

[sinker]

I didn't have anything specifically in mind. I just saw a lot of people having an issue labeling anything supernatural as "Pure Mortal" so I thought that taking that label away might help.

Then we move on to how people believe that we determine whether a template deserves a bonus or not. Personally I believe that a template should award a bonus if you can't buy powers without changing templates.