An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[sinker]

But all of that disappears instantly the second he makes a single choice. I dislike that.

[Mr. Death]

You're right, it does. Which is kind of fitting in a setting that so emphasizes that choices and their consequences are important. That magnitude of choice is why your average Changeling remains a changeling as long as they do.

Some choices are big. Many are permanent. Many close off options you might have had if you hadn't taken that choice.

That is the nature of the game, and I don't see how that's a bad thing.

[Richard_Chilton]

When a Changeling chooses he is consciously reject half of his parentage.  Either he becomes a new person or he becomes a Fairy.  Either way he's looking at massive changes to his life.

And as he rejects half of his life, he does so in a way that science can't explain.  I'm drawing from the Carpenter family for this - and since I'll be referencing WoJs I'll use the spoiler tag.

(click to show/hide)

Many people have asked Jim if Molly's siblings would have magic - inherited from Charity the same as Molly's.  The answer to that is no, because while Charity still had some talent when Molly was born Charity has since suppressed it to the point that none of her other children will have the talent.   This, of course, does not make scientific sense.  DNA doesn't change.  If Charity has the Wizard Gene she has the gene and all of her children have a chance of getting it, but this is how magical inheritance works in the DV.

Richard

[sinker]

You misunderstand. I don't dislike that a changeling looses some options. That creates struggle. That's great.

I dislike the idea that the choice removes consequences of previous actions. It doesn't matter how deep into it he was. It doesn't matter his relationship with his parent. It doesn't matter that he built up muscle (even if it was a bit easier for him to come by). Suddenly all of that goes away and he is someone else and he knows exactly who he is now (something few of us achieve in our whole lifetime). It just doesn't seem "realistic" to me. It breaks my suspension of disbelief.

I also dislike that concept Richard. It removes choice, choice that is interesting and creates drama. I understand that it's straight from Jim's mouth, but I dislike it, and will choose to do otherwise.

[Silverblaze]

Disclaimer: This is an example.  I do not wish to discuss my opinions of social combat/consequences at all, let alone on this thread. Please treat my opinion as an example (like it is intended).  I do not wish to derail this conversation.

I hate to say this but....

I don't like social combat.  I despise it.  i accept that it is part of the system.  I stopped trying to convince people to my way of thinking.  Most of the responses I get equate to:

"Get over it, it's part of the system."
"I see your point, I disagree/don't care"
"I see no basis for your opinion"
"You have bad reasons to feel this way."
"I like social combat."

I accept it.  I don't like those responses.  They are however fair responses.  I am in the minority, why harp on it?


Well to be honest.

Most of those responses apply just as well to "I don't like the changeling rule as is." or "I think things other than Pure Mortals should get the +2 refresh"

[Richard_Chilton]

We haven't heard the rest of Ace's story yet.  It's possible that when we do, everything we know about Changelings will change.  Jim has done that in the past, putting it down to Harry not understand what was really happening.

It's also possible that Paranet (or another book) will expand on the theory behind the templates (hint to Fred).  But until then the RAW doesn't give Changelings +2 refresh for not taking powers at creation.

Richard

[GryMor]

And as he rejects half of his life, he does so in a way that science can't explain.  I'm drawing from the Carpenter family for this - and since I'll be referencing WoJs I'll use the spoiler tag.

(click to show/hide)

Many people have asked Jim if Molly's siblings would have magic - inherited from Charity the same as Molly's.  The answer to that is no, because while Charity still had some talent when Molly was born Charity has since suppressed it to the point that none of her other children will have the talent.   This, of course, does not make scientific sense.  DNA doesn't change.  If Charity has the Wizard Gene she has the gene and all of her children have a chance of getting it, but this is how magical inheritance works in the DV.

Richard

(click to show/hide)

Even if there is a Wizard gene in the mundane biological sense, at most it is necessary, but not sufficient to become a Wizard, you also need to gestate in a magically rich environment for the gene to activate giving you the potential to draw on power later in life. Be that due to your mother being a practitioner or spending the pregnancy in a place of power. Otherwise, with rather exuberant exceptions, your quiescent potential just makes you more likely to express a minor talent. At least that seems to be consistent with the minor talent massacres and the predominantly matrilineal descent of Wizardry for those wizards we know the parentage of.

[Richard_Chilton]

(click to show/hide)

That doesn't work.

There's a WoJ that Eb's wife's (Harry's grandmother) was a normal mortal and there's no mention of her being in a place of power.  Then there's all those Warlocks who pop up unexpectedly - if a woman needed to spend 9 months in a place of power then it would be much easier to predict where someone with power would be born.

No, there is genetics and there is how magic is inherited - and the two aren't the same.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

Living with someone as powerful as Ebenezer McCoy might just count as "in a place of power."

That said, I remember hearing secondhand about some WOJ that because Harry's got so much power, any kid he has is likely to have some magical talent.

[devonapple]

Coming latelatelate to the party. Fascinated the discussion has gone on this long.

I still feel like having aspects you can invoke to come close to mimicking powers is a cheat or a sneaky way to circumvent the Pure mortal rule. 

This is about my opinion on the subject.

[Tedronai]

devonapple, or silverblaze for that matter, how would you define 'close to mimicking a power'?

[devonapple]

devonapple, or silverblaze for that matter, how would you define 'close to mimicking a power'?

What level of granularity do you require to consider anything I suggest to be a meaningful and persuasive definition?

Edit: or, you may provide me with a list of short suggestions and I will rate them.

[Tedronai]

What level of granularity do you require to consider anything I suggest to be a meaningful and persuasive definition?

I'm not sure precisely what you're asking, here, but preferably something for which I cannot, off the top of my head, provide an equivalent result for through the use of a properly worded and invoked mundane aspect.

[devonapple]

I'm not sure precisely what you're asking, here, but preferably something for which I cannot, off the top of my head, provide an equivalent result for through the use of a properly worded and invoked mundane aspect.

I'm asking, simply, for the rules. You see, people have shifted the rules, assumptions, and goals of this debate countless times during the discussion, and I would prefer to have a baseline from which to work, rather than have the rhetorical focus shifted mid-discussion.

So, what do you mean by "something"?
Do you want an effect? Or the rationalization for that effect?
The narrative result of an Invoke? Or the narrative logic which makes that Invoke acceptable?

[Becq]

I see most of this argument being derived from a stubborn refusal to include "Template" as a character trait.  With that, this becomes easy -- either the character sheet has "Template: Pure Mortal" on it, in which case the character is wholely non-supernatural but does get the +2 refresh bonus that is built into the Template, or the character has "Template: <anything else>" on it, in which case there's no +2 refresh bonus.

Even without having an explict "Template:" entry, though, every character does in fact have a Template defined on his sheet in the form of a High Concept, which is linked to Template.  By this, I mean that all supernatural Templates must have a High Concept that references them, and the Pure Mortal Template should (in my opinion, at least, and I believe this opinion is shared by those who chose #3 in my survey) fail to mention any supernatural Template.

That's basically the point I was indirectly trying to make in my little survey.  If you want to have a supernatural aspect, that's cool.  If your table wants to let such aspects grant aspect to minor supernatural capabilities, that's great, too.  But having a supernatural aspect is exactly the same thing as choosing a supernatural Template, which means that you are something other than a Pure Mortal.  And anything that is not Pure Mortal should not get the Pure Mortal refresh bonus.

(Note, by the way, that none of the above precludes (a) taking multiple Templates (and ensuring a High Concept that references all of them), so long as none of them are Pure Human, or (b) changing your Template in a way that fits the storyline.  In the latter case, for example, a Pure Mortal could be attacked by an RCV and become an RCI -- they'd take on the RCI Template by stripping off the Pure Mortal bonus, changing their High Concept in an appropriate way,  and adding in powers from the RCI template.)