An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[sinker]

Do we now have consensus that, under the RAW, it is possible to take an Aspect that precludes the Pure Mortal bonus?

I can agree that it's possible to have an aspect that precludes the pure mortal template, however that's never really been the question. The question is two fold. Firstly can one invoke an aspect to create supernatural effects (within the realm of invocation) without having powers of any kind, and secondly does a character with a supernatural aspect (but no powers) receive a bonus to refresh.

The realm of invocation is very personal, so it's not likely something that we would be able to settle on, but at least the second point seems clear (especially considering Fred's words on the topic).

[Tedronai]

The question is two fold. Firstly can one invoke an aspect to create supernatural effects (within the realm of invocation) without having powers of any kind,

To my knowledge, and after reading and participating in this thread, there is absolutely no rules-based argument against this capability.

[Haru]

Quite certainly not.  An aspect has no refresh value.

Nobody said that it had a refresh value, the question was, if an aspect (and mostly a high concept aspect at that) could disqualify a character from being granted the +2 pure mortal bonus. The changeling template makes that perfectly clear. You have potential powers, things you might take up in the course of an adventure, but you can start out without any powers and still not qualify as a pure mortal. The only requirement in this case is the high concept, linking you to your fay heritage, which is

an Aspect that precludes the Pure Mortal bonus.

I still feel like having aspects you can invoke to come close to mimicking powers is a cheat or a sneaky way to circumvent the Pure mortal rule.

That's been my position the whole time. Only that I don't think it is something minor, since the distinction between supernatural nature and mortal free will is a core theme of the game. Which also means, that an aspect like that should be compelled often enough, so you shouldn't need the 2 refresh for fate points. And if you want the bonus refresh to put it into stunts, then I definitely see it as cheating your way out of the penalty for taking powers.

No, strike that. It is not a penalty for taking powers, it is a bonus for not having anything to do with powers.

[Silverblaze]

I agree Haru. 

However, there is no convincing some people; I am one of those people sometimes.

11 pages later it is hard to care about convincing those people.  i feel i'm just reasserting my point over aned over to little or no avail.

The reason I claimed that it is something minor is that mechanics wise they'll likely want powers sooner or later and lose the +2 bonus anyhow.  Until then I'd carefully monitor the use of hte supernatural aspect and what I'd allow it to do.  (Generally nothing very supernatural if they want the +2 bonus for being a Pure  Mortal but...I can be persuaded in some situations I'm sure.)  Sure, some characters/players will be able to abuse that.  I'd drop the GM/DM/Storyteller hammer on them so fast they crapped their pants once abuse started.

[Tedronai]

you can start out without any powers and still not qualify as a pure mortal.

See multiple pages of this thread re: the bonus from the Pure Mortal template explicitly stating the reasoning by which it is applied, reasoning that applies to your hypothetical changeling; see also the statement from Fred to essentially the same end ('no powers = +2 refresh').


It is possible, in my opinion, to have an Aspect that precludes the Pure Mortal template.  Only taking a Power, however, can preclude the Pure Mortal bonus.

[Richard_Chilton]

Quite certainly not.  An aspect has no refresh value.

Here's this for an example - legal or no?

Name: William Flowerbane
HC: Evil Son Of Toot-Toot.
Trouble: No one takes me seriously.
Template: Changeling
Background
(To be filled in later)
Power Level: Choose one
Refresh: Consult Power Level, then add +2 (Not taking any powers so claiming the Pure Mortal bonus).

It's just the outline - but would that PC get the bonus? I'd say no - even though he has no Powers one of his aspects (his High Concept) precludes him from claiming the Pure Mortal bonus.

If we can't agree on that example - then we should agree to disagree.

Richard

[Tedronai]

I'd say no - even though he has no Powers one of his aspects (his High Concept) precludes him from claiming the Pure Mortal template.

Fixed it for you.

[Richard_Chilton]

When quoting what I have written, please do not change the text inside the quote.

Also - please point me to anywhere OUTSIDE of the Pure Mortal template where it talks about gaining a refresh bonus.

Anywhere that it says that a Changeling can qualify for that bonus.

If not, then one of us is not talking about the RAW and I will concede the point that in your homebrew game you can award that bonus to any character you choose to.

Richard

[Haru]

For me, the pure mortal template and bonus are one and the same, if you are not eligible for the pure mortal template, you are not eligible for the pure mortal bonus, since taking that template is what grants you the bonus and nothing else. If you want to make the pure mortal bonus a +2 power, go for it, but I don't like that solution one bit.

Like I said, to me it is not that you start with (at submerged) 12 refresh and loose 2 of them when you choose a power, you start with 10 and gain 2, if you choose the pure mortal template.

[Silverblaze]

Here's this for an example - legal or no?

Name: William Flowerbane
HC: Evil Son Of Toot-Toot.
Trouble: No one takes me seriously.
Template: Changeling
Background
(To be filled in later)
Power Level: Choose one
Refresh: Consult Power Level, then add +2 (Not taking any powers so claiming the Pure Mortal bonus).

It's just the outline - but would that PC get the bonus? I'd say no - even though he has no Powers one of his aspects (his High Concept) precludes him from claiming the Pure Mortal bonus.

If we can't agree on that example - then we should agree to disagree.

Richard

Apperently that isn't going to happen, at least not on this thread.  The stubbornness is getting rediculous in my opinion.  I'm exercinsg Epic or legendary Willpower in not trolling at this point.  Really I am.

For me, the pure mortal template and bonus are one and the same, if you are not eligible for the pure mortal template, you are not eligible for the pure mortal bonus, since taking that template is what grants you the bonus and nothing else. If you want to make the pure mortal bonus a +2 power, go for it, but I don't like that solution one bit.

Like I said, to me it is not that you start with (at submerged) 12 refresh and loose 2 of them when you choose a power, you start with 10 and gain 2, if you choose the pure mortal template.

Exactly, it is a bonus for being PURE MORTAL.  Not : I don't have powers.
It is also not a penalty for taking powers.  it is incentive to not take powers.  "Hey, you can;'t do the cool thigns everyone else can.  Here's some more refresh, we're sorry you will likely die a horrible bloody death "

Since there is no I Don't Have Powers template, one can only assume each table will handle such characters that do not exist within a template on a case by case basis...or not allow charadcters that do not fit a template.

[Tedronai]

Not : I don't have powers.

This is explicitly what it is.
YS73:
"Pure mortals may not take any supernatural
powers. In exchange for this restriction,
pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their
starting refresh."

If it was a bonus for being a Pure Mortal, there would be no 'In exchange for this restriction' in that passage.
It would read:
'Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers.  Pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh.'

Do you see the difference?

[Richard_Chilton]

That wording is missing from Templates that could have a cost of 0 (i.e. have no musts other than aspects).

Do you see the difference?

Richard

[Silverblaze]

Hmmm...the arguement seems to be going nowhere.  Urge to troll rising....

At this point it's only a matter of time before we hit the point of no return.  Options being....

"No, you're stupid."

or

"I'm right, you're wrong."

The bottom one is at least not nearly so offensive, so I'll go with that.

I'm right, you're wrong.


Also:

This is explicitly what it is.
YS73:
"Pure mortals may not take any supernatural
powers. In exchange for this restriction,
pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their
starting refresh."

If it was a bonus for being a Pure Mortal, there would be no 'In exchange for this restriction' in that passage.
It would read:
'Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers.  Pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh.'

Do you see the difference?

No...I really do not see the difference.  I'm almost certain at this point that you won't be convinced otherwise yes?  I know I'm not budging on my stance and sincerely feel you are quite wrong.  I'm certain you feel I am wrong or you wouldn't keep arguing.  Hence my immature response above.

 I think at this point it becomes "glass half full" vs "glass half empty".

Though we're close becoming "Who cares if the glass is half full or half empty as long as I keep filling it with fuel to argue endlessly?"

[Silverblaze]

EDIT: I am too stupid to post pictures which is likely for the best.

[Sanctaphrax]

i feel i'm just reasserting my point over aned over to little or no avail.

Please do not do this. Arguments based on blind assertion are one of the only things on the internet that can actually annoy me.

I don't believe that an aspect can, without the presence of Powers, make a character not get a Refresh bonus. But some aspects might not be appropriate on a character without Powers.

My position on this is a logical extension of the separation between mechanics and narrative. Refresh does not exist inside the game world. It only exists within the mechanical framework. So removing it based on something that doesn't exist within the mechanical framework is just silly.

There, that's as clear as I can make it. I think.

PS: The son of Toot-toot is a really bad example for this, because he could well have Chosen mortality.
PPS: I don't really like the whole idea of agreeing to disagree. It only works when the issue is subjective.