An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[sinker]

And you know, I think there's value in looking at the intent of the player in this situation. I heard the argument earlier that this is the player trying to "Have their cake and eat it too." I think this is a point on which we are incredibly opposed. I see two characters (the Pyromancer and the Pyromaniac, or the Luck Scion and the Lucky Mortal) who have no difference whatsoever mechanically, even where the thematics influences the mechanics (and it does, I'll agree with that). The reason for this is that I see invocations as a player action that regularly alters the narrative outside of the character regardless of whether it's supernatural or not. A mortal could totally create fire "out of thin air" or at a distance, because the invocation is the player altering the narrative world around the character to create the fire. Aspect invocations are essentially the supernatural power that everyone has access to. That's how I see them and why I don't see this as a significant mechanical advantage.

Finally as for the warlock, I would point out that Lawbreaker is technically a power, so regardless of any other view, the warlock is not eligible for a refresh bonus.

[Richard_Chilton]

Death or Richard, would you care to address, in any meaningful way beyond forcing these characters to take a power, the explicit explanation of the reasoning behind the Pure Mortal bonus being that they have no supernatural Powers?  With particular emphasis on the absence of any mention of other representations of supernatural anything as a contributing factor to that compensation?

Here is a fundamental point of disagreement.  You appear to be looking only at the "musts" part of that template while I look at the description as well.  The description has the "no supernatural stuff" line I've quoted several times and that is the bases for my "no supernatural stuff" position.

As for forcing a player to take something - I'm not writing the background or the character sheet.  The player chooses what he wants to play.  If he decides on something that doesn't fit the Pure Human template then he decides on something that doesn't fit the Pure Human template.

The choice is the player's.  If he wants to include something that doesn't with fit:
"Pure mortals are ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—save perhaps for the company they keep or the things they’ve seen."
then, by my reading of the rules, it's the player deciding not play that template.

But perhaps you could explain how high concepts such as "Council level magical talent, ZERO training", "Distant Scion of the Luck God", or "Pyromancer" fit with the "don’t have anything supernatural going on" requirement?

Richard

[sinker]

As for forcing a player to take something - I'm not writing the background or the character sheet.  The player chooses what he wants to play.  If he decides on something that doesn't fit the Pure Human template then he decides on something that doesn't fit the Pure Human template.

Personally I would ask you a question in response. What if he decides on something that doesn't fit any template at all? What would you do then? (And I'm totally not trying to be snide, or lure you into something here, I would actually like to know your answer to this question, I think it will clarify a few things)

[Tedronai]

I'm not sure I understand quite what you're asking, but I'll try to answer as best I can. I'd also ask that you take it down a notch, because you're coming off as confrontational in a lot of these posts, particularly with that "in any meaningful way" line, implying that what I've said up to now isn't meaningful.

I apologize for the perceived tone of my posts, that was not my intent.  I included the 'meaningful' clause because I do not see forcing the player to take a power to represent a capability that can be suitably replicated solely through aspects as meaningful.

Powers and stunts are the mechanical representation of a character's High Concept and aspects, so in the raw math of the game, that's what it refers to as the basis for what determines Pure Mortal/Non-Pure Mortal status. But that doesn't mean you can get around losing the bonus through a supernatural aspect.

The "fluff" and "crunch," as you put it, aren't, and shouldn't be, entirely separate from one another. Your "fluff" helps to determine your "crunch," and--to the extent that the outcome of dice rolls can affect your "fluff" in the form of Extreme Consequences and the mechanics of the Lawbreaker power--the opposite is true too.
Really, there's a lot of things that could be considered "forced" on a player because of their character concept. If you want to play a wizard, you're required to take Thaumaturgy even if you never plan on doing rituals.

Here is a fundamental point of disagreement.  You appear to be looking only at the "musts" part of that template while I look at the description as well.  The description has the "no supernatural stuff" line I've quoted several times and that is the bases for my "no supernatural stuff" position.

I think we have, at this point, all conceded that a character with a supernatural high concept such as the one being discussed would not qualify for the Pure Mortal template.

I am suggesting that the same reasoning used to give the Pure Mortal template their iconic bonus could and should apply to this prospective character as well, and that since the same reasoning applies, the same result should, as well, namely that a character that has been voluntarily denied the benefits of supernatural Powers gains two additional refresh unless and until that character permanently gains supernatural Powers by any means.

[Richard_Chilton]

Personally I would ask you a question in response. What if he decides on something that doesn't fit any template at all? What would you do then? (And I'm totally not trying to be snide, or lure you into something here, I would actually like to know your answer to this question, I think it will clarify a few things)

It would be a custom template.  Maybe it would be a branch off of a scion, maybe a minor talent, maybe a branch off of another template, or maybe something from scratch.

But since it isn't the Pure Mortal template, it wouldn't gain the bonus that is given to the Pure Mortal template.  Pure Mortal is Pure Mortal, not "Pure Mortal plus this magic bit".

I am suggesting that the same reasoning used to give the Pure Mortal template their iconic bonus could and should apply to this prospective character as well, and that since the same reasoning applies, the same result should, as well, namely that a character that has been voluntarily denied the benefits of supernatural Powers gains two additional refresh unless and until that character permanently gains supernatural Powers by any means.

I don't see it as the same reasoning.  The bonus for the Pure Mortal template is for having a Pure Mortal, no supernatural stuff, character.  That restriction removes countless options from play.  To me, saying "No real powers but a supernatural aspect / background" is the same as saying "Pure Mortal with something supernatural going" - which isn't a Pure Mortal.

As for balance, if all a minor talent has is Cassandra’s Tears and / or Wizard’s Constitution (both 0 cost powers) that character doesn't have useful powers that will impact play - yet he loses those 2 refresh.  I don't see either of those powers as worth the 2 refresh lost, but those are the RAW.

Richard

[sinker]

So that's where we differ so strongly. We can all agree that a pure mortal is a pure mortal because they don't have anything supernatural, but when Tedronai and I look at the place in the template where it talks about the refresh bonus we see that it says "Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers. In exchange for this restriction, pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh." And we assume then that any other template that may not take powers should gain a +2 bonus to their starting refresh.

[Silverblaze]

Can't resist...posting...

So that's where we differ so strongly. We can all agree that a pure mortal is a pure mortal because they don't have anything supernatural, but when Tedronai and I look at the place in the template where it talks about the refresh bonus we see that it says "Pure mortals may not take any supernatural powers. In exchange for this restriction, pure mortal characters get a +2 bonus to their starting refresh." And we assume then that any other template that may not take powers should gain a +2 bonus to their starting refresh.

I think I see where you are coming from (not sure I agree though) ...but... I still require some clarification.

Pure Mortals can't grow into something supernatural without losing that +2 refresh.  Would you also agree that any concept without powers would lose the +2 refresh as soon as it acquires a power?

Personally I would ask you a question in response. What if he decides on something that doesn't fit any template at all? What would you do then? (And I'm totally not trying to be snide, or lure you into something here, I would actually like to know your answer to this question, I think it will clarify a few things)

I'd lay out what  the upper limits of the template were going to be without deviating from the high concept (via story events).  I'd still allow them to perhaps gain items of power, gain sponsored magic, become a vampire (infected) or a wereform, etc.  However, I'd create a template-like layout for the character in question.  I'd work out what I expected the character to have to buy initially.  I'd likely barter back and forth for game balance issues.

It would be a custom creation...not a PC without limits or requirements.


As a side note: Each table must decide the Pure Mortal question for itself.  Some tables might allow IoP and Marked by power or even -0 refresh powers on Pure Mortals.  I quite likely wouldn't, but I can see how someone might. 

[sinker]

I think I see where you are coming from (not sure I agree though) ...but... I still require some clarification.

Pure Mortals can't grow into something supernatural without losing that +2 refresh.  Would you also agree that any concept without powers would lose the +2 refresh as soon as it acquires a power?

Yeah, I really don't think that anyone here will disagree with this.

I'd lay out what  the upper limits of the template were going to be without deviating from the high concept (via story events).  I'd still allow them to perhaps gain items of power, gain sponsored magic, become a vampire (infected) or a wereform, etc.  However, I'd create a template-like layout for the character in question.  I'd work out what I expected the character to have to buy initially.  I'd likely barter back and forth for game balance issues.

It would be a custom creation...not a PC without limits or requirements.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a PC not have limits or requirements. Unless of course you are Thor Badass McAwesome.

Of note I see your mention of those bits specifically and wonder if you would limit growth strictly to outside sources (in both the case of the pure mortal and the custom powerless template). Mostly I ask because I see potential for untapped power in both cases.

[Mr. Death]

Personally I would ask you a question in response. What if he decides on something that doesn't fit any template at all? What would you do then? (And I'm totally not trying to be snide, or lure you into something here, I would actually like to know your answer to this question, I think it will clarify a few things)

Eh, like I said before, templates are more like guidelines, and you can certainly have a PC that doesn't fit one found in the book--I play a valkyrie in one game, and there's no template for that, for example, and the Scion template reads a lot like the book shrugging and going, "Do whatever you can sell to your GM." I remember hearing that one of the original tester groups came out with a character that was some kind of sentient whip.

If a player came to me with a character idea that didn't readily fit a template, I'd do my best to get it to work mechanically to their satisfaction--while reminding them that there are some things that just don't work in the system (had a prospective player asking me about turning people into toads with evocation once, for instance).

My feeling on this is that the fluff should match up as well as possible with the nuts and bolts, instead of separating the two, both in spirit and in mechanics.

So by my read of it, a character whose fluff is "I'm supernatural" should have the nuts and bolts "I have some kind of supernatural power" by default, even if you could, technically, replicate the mechanical effect with the normal use of an aspect (or a stunt, even).

[Haru]

If a player came to me with a character idea that didn't readily fit a template, I'd do my best to get it to work mechanically to their satisfaction--while reminding them that there are some things that just don't work in the system (had a prospective player asking me about turning people into toads with evocation once, for instance).

To be honest, for me there are only 2 templates, really: pure mortal and supernatural. I see the templates in YS more as guidelines along the lines of "this is how your character could look like". Then you can just go and fit your powers to the character you have in mind.
The "turning people into toads" could be a supernatural power, that lets you do that as a taken out result. I feel that the taken out result is greatly overlooked as a way to implement some powers.

[sinker]

To be honest, for me there are only 2 templates, really: pure mortal and supernatural.

I dislike this unless you stretch the definition of pure mortal to include anything that doesn't have powers, but that's because of my above view of the intent of the developers in making that template.

[Haru]

Yes, pretty much. A Pure mortal is someone who invests his refresh in nothing but stunts. If you are an angel cursed to live a human life, that is your backstory, and that is fine. If you retain any supernatural powers from that background, you are no pure mortal. Hell (no pun intended), even taking true faith "powers" cost you the pure mortal bonus, and they are as close to the pure mortal side of the spectrum as you can get.

And like I said above, for a 1 refresh "power" to qualify as a stunt, it is not so much important to me, what the benefits are, but where they come from. If the angel above spends 1 refresh on an improved lore, then he can either have a lore stunt, saying that in his time as an angel he learned a lot about the supernatural world, that he still carries with him. Or he says that he is still connected to the heavens, granting him knowledge beyond human comprehension. Both can give him +2 on a lore roll, but only the stunt would qualify him for the pure mortal template.

Yes, in this case, it is sort of wobbly. I see it as sort of an active passive thing. I know what I've learned over the years vs. I have access to a supernatural den of knowledge.

[sinker]

A good way to make that distinction (between a stunt and a power) really is the shift value. A stunt gives two shifts of effect, or one shift of effect added to an attack. A power gives about four shifts of effect, or two shifts of effect added to an attack per point of refresh.

[Mr. Death]

Well, the powers definitely have more kick per refresh spent, but I'm not sure that math works out. As someone mentioned before, the base form of Incite Emotion is basically a +2 to the roll, the same value as a stunt would be. The "more kick" here would be that while both Incite Emotion and the Sex Appeal stunt give a +2 to seduction attempts for -1 refresh, Sex Appeal comes with the caveat of "provided they would be receptive to your advances," while Incite Emotion works on anyone equally.

[sinker]

Meh, Incite emotion is only one refresh. It grants you justification to perform psychic emotion-based maneuvers and blocks, and then gives you +2 to do so. Since the first ability is a little nebulous it's tough to assign a shift value, but it's still 2 shifts for the bonus, and 1-3 shifts for the ability.

I suppose that I should have clarified that it's usually double the value, or the same value with a supernatural ability of some kind (like cloak of shadow's ability to see in the dark).

Edit: I just realized how best to state what I was trying to above. Incite emotion adds a trapping to Intimidate or Deceit (which is equivalent to a stunt) and then adds a +2 bonus to that trapping (equivalent to a second stunt) for the cost of a single stunt, so the math holds up.

Though it occurs to me that claws doesn't support that math...