An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent

[Tedronai]

Obviously, this hypothetical template is differentiated by its tolerance for internalized supernaturally themed aspects and has the potential for more ready justification to 'upgrade' to yet another template, possibly hypothetical, possibly canonical, that would give it Powers in line with the overarching themes of those aspects

[Mr. Death]

So we have a refresh bonus for Pure Mortals (and, everywhere said bonus is mentioned in the books, it's directly and explicitly associated with the Pure Mortal template), that signifies that the character getting the bonus has nothing supernatural going on, and you're suggesting that the same bonus apply to someone who clearly has something supernatural going on.

There's really nothing stopping someone with the Pure Mortal template picking up any of the powers as long as the GM and player find something workable. Molly was likely on the Pure Mortal template until the first time she manifested powers. Murphy is the Pure Mortal template until she picks up the sword. It wouldn't take much in the way of BSing for someone using the Pure Mortal template initially to "discover" that, hey, they're really Tiny the Gruff's third cousin twice removed and develop some powers based on that.

But if the character has a known, acknowledged supernatural nature that is actively manifesting in some way, they're not a Pure Mortal, and I don't think it right to take the Pure Mortal template's one advantage--the refresh bonus--and give it to another template because then, hey, why would anyone play Pure Mortal at all?

[Tedronai]

No, we have a refresh bonus for Pure Mortals where the description of the Pure Mortal template says that they have nothing supernatural going on and where the bonus says that they have no supernatural POWERS.
What I and others have repeatedly suggested is that that bonus apply to any character that qualifies for IT, using the restrictions defined IN the bonus, regardless of whether they qualify for its single RAW template.

Kind of like I would allow even a non-RC(x) to take Flesh Mask, even though that power is only ever mentioned in reference to the Red Court, if they were appropriate for that character's concept.

[Mr. Death]

And what I and others have repeatedly suggested is that you shouldn't separate the mechanics from the reasons for those mechanics. You shouldn't just follow the letter of the template without considering the spirit of it, that a Pure Mortal is someone without anything supernatural to them. The lack of powers represents that in the mechanical sense. It is the crunch representation of a fluff concept, just as the refresh bonus is the crunch representation of the increased free will a Pure Mortal has over a supernatural character.

This is a setting where having supernatural ability of any kind affects who and what you are, and that's reflected in the refresh bonus or lack thereof. I simply find it incongruous to give someone the Pure Mortal bonus who is explicitly, via his aspects, not a Pure Mortal.

[Tedronai]

And what I and others have repeatedly suggested is that you shouldn't separate the mechanics from the reasons for those mechanics.

I'm not.  The reasons for the mechanics are explicitly stated in the text of the bonus itself.

[Silverblaze]

Time to flip the question.  Other than character concept... if talking purely about efficiency or usefulness, why play a Pure Mortal?  Other things can get the +2 bonus at you table, so why have the Pure Mortal Template? 

EDIT: the above question is playing devil's advocate in a way.  i think concept nad roleplay is more important than just waht the numbers say on my sheet, but not every player does.  These questions are for them.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not.  The reasons for the mechanics are explicitly stated in the text of the bonus itself.

You're separating the 'no supernatural powers' from 'nothing supernatural going on.' Supernatural powers are the mechanical representation of a supernatural nature. If you don't have a supernatural nature, you don't have supernatural powers, and vice verse. The two, fluff and mechanics, are linked directly to one another, and this hypothetical template has one without the other.

You wouldn't allow someone to take a supernatural power (mechanics) without having their high concept and aspects (fluff) reflect supernatural nature or ability, right?

So why would you let someone have a high concept that explicitly references supernatural nature or ability, without the associated mechanics?

[Tedronai]

Time to flip the question.  Other than character concept... if talking purely about efficiency or usefulness, why play a Pure Mortal?  Other things can get the +2 bonus at you table, so why have the Pure Mortal Template? 

For the same (absence of) reasons one might play a Focused Practitioner instead of a Scion of something that just happens to be innately gifted in the Art as well as numerous other things.
Heck, for the same (absence of) reasons why a player interested solely in numerical efficiency would take the Pure Mortal template in any game where a supernatural alternative were not presented.

You're separating the 'no supernatural powers' from 'nothing supernatural going on.'

And you're equating them when the text does not do so.

Supernatural powers are the mechanical representation of a supernatural nature.

'the', singular, implying 'only', a demonstrable error

If you don't have a supernatural nature, you don't have supernatural powers, and vice verse.

And now we're no longer implying.
Even the RAW Changeling template disagrees with you on this one.  It is possible to have a supernatural nature in the absence of supernatural Powers.

All the rest following from these errors, it does not need responding.

[Mr. Death]

Fair enough on the Changeling thing.

So, would it be more accurate to say that the lack of the Pure Mortal bonus is the mechanical representation of a supernatural nature, based on the fact that the Changeling template allows a character with no supernatural powers, but without the Pure Mortal bonus?

And you're equating them when the text does not do so.

Putting both in the same section--the write-up of the Pure Mortal template--doesn't link them? The section has the description, then the mechanics that represent the description, just as any other template does. It basically says, "This is what the template means," followed by, "And here are the mechanics for everything we just said."

The "Musts" section of any of the templates is meant to be taken with the description. They are both factors in what a character is and how it's played.

[Tedronai]

would it be more accurate to say that the lack of the Pure Mortal bonus is the mechanical representation of a supernatural nature, based on the fact that the Changeling template allows a character with no supernatural powers, but without the Pure Mortal bonus?

It would be less inaccurate (so as to say that it's accuracy would still be found notably wanting to the point where conclusions drawn as a result would be unacceptably likely be faulty).

If one wants accuracy, the Pure Mortal bonus is the mechanical compensation for a template barred from supernatural Powers.

The Pure Mortal bonus being associated solely with the Pure Mortal template within the RAW is thus easily explained by the Pure Mortal template being the only template existing in the RAW that is barred from supernatural Powers.

[sinker]

Ok, I'm going to back up a bit and tell you why I see this as a problem (and it's not a mechanical problem).

We've established that, through externalized narrative control and externalized supernatural aspects, a pure mortal can achieve supernatural ends (lighting a fire at range or from nothing, traveling to the Nevernever, etc). However what you're saying is if we internalize any of that there is a penalty.

Can you imagine if you came up with a really interesting character concept, that was essentially a mortal with a neat aspect tweak (my "Clotho's blood runs through my veins (barely)" is a great example), and this other player has the same concept but without the story behind the aspect (He's just got "Weird luck"). Would it not suck if your GM decided that his character (functionally the same but much less story) deserved the refresh bonus and you didn't? That's what I see here, it's an inequity.

I also see what people are describing as abuse of the concept, but there are two issues I have with that. One is that literally anything that you can do with a supernatural aspect, you can also do with a mundane or externalized supernatural aspect. Second is that it's the GM's job to be the voice of reason. You ask "What's to stop me from taking a bunch of unassociated supernatural aspects instead of powers?" And my response is: The GM! The GM should look at what you are doing and say "Hey, you are clearly trying to game the system, cut it out."

Again, I see an inequity and it bothers me.

[GryMor]

Time to flip the question.  Other than character concept... if talking purely about efficiency or usefulness, why play a Pure Mortal?  Other things can get the +2 bonus at you table, so why have the Pure Mortal Template? 

Why not? Supernatural aspects don't have a mechanical advantage over non supernatural aspects, for the most part you can achieve the same ends through different means, you are just open to a different set of compels.

[Mr. Death]

It would be less inaccurate (so as to say that it's accuracy would still be found notably wanting to the point where conclusions drawn as a result would be unacceptably likely be faulty).

If one wants accuracy, the Pure Mortal bonus is the mechanical compensation for a template barred from supernatural Powers.

EDIT: Removed unnecessarily confrontational line.

Not taking powers is part of the mechanical representation of the fluff that a Pure Mortal has "nothing supernatural going on," it's not the reason for it.

@Sinker: Some character concepts just don't work as a Pure Mortal. A character who's a scion of a deity or fate or what have you should be notably different from a Pure Mortal who happens to have a similar aspect.

I would say that if you wanted good luck to be that much a part of the character that it's a significant part of the backstory and something they can intrinsically do, it should be represented by more than just an aspect anyway. Maybe make a whole bunch of small powers to represent it.

It's not a "punishment" of taking away the bonus; it's an opportunity to flesh it out into other powers and expand the concept.

If you want to have a character with a high concept referencing some supernatural nature and power, why wouldn't you give him powers that reflect and compliment that nature and power? Why limit him to being the equivalent of a Pure Mortal when the High Concept easily lends itself to powers that would allow so much more?

[Becq]

The Pure Mortal template (and the derived bonus) as presented in the book is flawed in that it contradicts itself on how it is to be used.  So each group gets to clarify how they want to deal with the situation.

So by one interpretation of the rules, you can end up with Pure Mortals with the HC "Favored Grand³⁰⁰-daughter of Zeus" who then invoke-for-effect to declare that their foes' zone just got hit by a lightning bolt (because Pappy Z is sooo protective sometimes).  A dozen times, or more if there's a few compels in between fights.

This doesn't appeal to me on at least two counts (the other being that I don't think that's a legit invoke-for-effect, even for a template that allows for such things).  But hey, its a game, and as always the Golden Rule is that the game is there to be fun for the participants.  If your table likes a game with that feel, go for it.

Bottom line: to each his own.

[sinker]

@Death: You assuming I'm talking about High Concept. What if this isn't the central part of the character? My high concept (and what I want my character to focus on) is "Savy Financier" or "Battle-Scarred Merc". I just want a bit of luck, and figured it would be better to give that luck a justification. You're assuming that the character concept revolves around weirdness, and heck I'm with you if that's the case. If their High Concept is all about them being a luck scion then I would love to suggest to them a number of neat powers that could go with that. But if it's not central to their character, or if they intentionally want to show a lack of power, then I would hate to force something on them like that. It's just not in everyone's best interest.