DFRPG In Other Time P... *AHEM!* Yadda-Yadda, Something About Claws and Stuff.

[MAK]

... Maybe something like have the top point be whatever time you're going for, hex just the top part if you're a focused practitioner, top three for sorcerers and their ilk and top five for wizards. Still on the No Way / Problematic / Ok scale of course. You'd have to extend the list of course.

First you'd have to define what approximate time periods you aim for and what is the High Tech for each, of course. Some sort of "tech level" definition that some games have - any existing usable scales that anyone knows of? Some relevant breakthroughs were already mentioned: gunpowder - steam - electricity - eletronics

[Mr. Death]

I'm not saying you think the rules should be bent or broken. I chose my words with care, and I said balance.

You think that the rules should be written in a way that discourages non-obvious natural melee weapons, right? (Though for whatever reason you apparently have no problem with non-obvious natural ranged weapons).

That's bending the game's balance. It's useful for preventing people from playing the game wrong.

I'm not saying it should be that way. I'm saying it is written that way.

And there's no such thing as a non-obvious natural ranged weapon. Once you start hurling flaming poo at someone, they're going to notice.

That's just not true. Everything Uriel does is incredibly subtle, and there's no indication that he's trying to hide anything. He just acts in subtle ways.

Uriel is by far not a good measure. In fact, he's on such a power scale that a lot of his job consists of not using his power. And what power have we seen him use? The most obvious use of his power has been...to say a few words of encouragement to Dresden a couple times. Uriel is heaven's black ops guy--by definition, what he does is going to be subtle and unnoticeable, because he's doing something to hide it.

Soulgazes and The Sight, so far as we can tell, don't look like anything.

No, but they've been known to cause people to faint anyway--and they're some of the weakest powers for effect.

Some thaumaturgy and most accidental hexing is subtle enough that it can be passed off as coincidence.

Some is, yes. A lot isn't. The big bit of Thaumaturgy that looks accidental is Entropy Curses, which are supposed to look like accidents (i.e., doing something to hide it).

Michael and Charity are to all appearances totally mortal, despite having plenty of supernatural power.

When he's on the clock, Michael's sword freaking glows. In Grave Peril, he makes a couple of daggers glow and physically repel monsters just by holding them upside down so they look like crosses. Charity we simply haven't seen her doing anything for most of the books, so she's just not a good way to judge it.

Furthermore, it's worth mentioning that the rules don't require Claws to be obvious when it's used, they require it to be obvious at all times.

Unless you buy a power that costs nothing.

No they wouldn't, not unless that effect is always visible. If they're only obvious when used, they break the rules for the power.

Again, there's a power that's completely free that eliminates that issue.

[eri]

Up for what, exactly?

Writing a new expanded hexing table:

There's a table on YS258 which addresses how difficult it is to intentionally hex something. Something could be made of that I suppose, but Harry seems to regularly hex anything down to difficulty five on the list, so some tweaking is in order. Maybe something like have the top point be whatever time you're going for, hex just the top part if you're a focused practitioner, top three for sorcerers and their ilk and top five for wizards. Still on the No Way / Problematic / Ok scale of course. You'd have to extend the list of course. Maybe we could get someone here to do that?

I wrote it just above where I asked if you could do it...
The top of it's fine, but the middle and lower section needs to be expanded a bit, so it doesn't jump as far with each move down the scale. It has almost the entire Victorian period as one jump on the scale. What I'm looking for would have several jumps through the Victorian period. There are loads of minor breakthroughs that was made in that period. Like matches, home sewing-machines, and re-breathers and stuff.

First you'd have to define what approximate time periods you aim for and what is the High Tech for each, of course. Some sort of "tech level" definition that some games have - any existing usable scales that anyone knows of? Some relevant breakthroughs were already mentioned: gunpowder - steam - electricity - electronics

Clockwork. That's before gunpowder I think.
And GURPS has a pretty complete tech-scale, but I'm not sure how it would adapt.

[Pbartender]

Unless you buy a power that costs nothing...
...Again, there's a power that's completely free that eliminates that issue.

Okay, here's the interesting thing...  As far as characters go, by the book, there's very few situations in which this problem ever actually comes up.  Here's why:

First, Claws is a Creatures Features power.  Any power that alters or disguises your form can hide the claws, otherwise they are always obvious.  Here's a list...

Glamours [-2]
Greater Glamours [-4] (But you must be pure fae, thus eliminating PCs from taking it.)
Flesh Mask [-1]
Human Form [+1]
Human Guise [+0]
Mimic Form [-2]
True Shapeshifting [-4]
and Spells from all their various sources [Varies]

Now, granted GMs are given leeway to create new ones, but...  There are only two templates that allow a character to take Claws -- Changling and Were-Form. 

Were-Form requires Human Form, so even if the animal form allows for claws they can be hidden, albeit only when in Human Form.  Also note that Human Form is not a freebie, like Human Guise.

Changlings are allowed to Claws and several of the Shapeshifting and Glamour options for hiding them, but only if the GM agrees that they are appropriate for the type of fae the changling is descended from.

So, as far as player-characters are concerned the only time you'll see Claws without a means to hide it (and presuming a new, home-made Template isn't introduced) is if a Changling picks Claws as a power and either chooses to not hide them or isn't allowed to by the GM.

Otherwise, it's a power to make monsters and animals hit harder when they attack.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'll take a shot at an expanded hexing table soonish.

I'm not saying it should be that way. I'm saying it is written that way.

You've posted repeatedly defending the way it's written. That means you're saying it should be that way.

And there's no such thing as a non-obvious natural ranged weapon. Once you start hurling flaming poo at someone, they're going to notice.

The power does not prohibit invisible or intangible attacks. And it very much does not prohibit powers that are not obvious until used.

When he's on the clock, Michael's sword freaking glows. In Grave Peril, he makes a couple of daggers glow and physically repel monsters just by holding them upside down so they look like crosses. Charity we simply haven't seen her doing anything for most of the books, so she's just not a good way to judge it.

That's the sword. Michael himself is by all indications a totally nonmagical human in the novels, despite the large amount of divine help that he receives.

Forthill and Charity even more so. Neither of them ever does anything to indicate any kind of magical ability.

Unless you buy a power that costs nothing.
Again, there's a power that's completely free that eliminates that issue.

Hold on, that's my line. Do you still disagree with me?

[eri]

I'll take a shot at an expanded hexing table soonish.

Thank you 

...

I feel kind of like I should be apologising for derailing the thread from the derailment it was on. Even though I was just trying to get it back to the original subject. Is that weird?

[Mr. Death]

You've posted repeatedly defending the way it's written. That means you're saying it should be that way.

No. I've posted repeatedly stating the way it's written, and why it's written that way. It is not the same thing.

The power does not prohibit invisible or intangible attacks. And it very much does not prohibit powers that are not obvious until used.

I'm under the presumption that Breath Weapon is exclusively physical attacks (Mental attacks would be better under Incite Emotion and Social attacks...well, okay, some kind of puke-based Breath Weapon I could see, fine). That means that even if your attack is invisible, your target is going to react. If you wave your hands at, exhale really hard, or stare at someone who then recoils in pain/starts melting/is flung across the room, that's pretty noticeable.

Then again, maybe that's why it's -2 refresh instead of -1.

That's the sword. Michael himself is by all indications a totally nonmagical human in the novels, despite the large amount of divine help that he receives.

Michael, sans sword, was able to make a pair of apparently-mundane daggers glow and ward off a room full of vampires. You sure it's just the Sword?

Forthill and Charity even more so. Neither of them ever does anything to indicate any kind of magical ability.

And neither of them really face down supernatural creatures terribly often. The one power they do seem to use a lot, Guide My Hand, may not be big and flashy obvious, but what's happening is clear enough that Father Forthill and Michael recognize that there's a divine hand involved when the former mysteriously breaks down right in front of the Carpenter house when Michael needs to go out smiting, and Harry has noticed it enough that he's literally bet his life on it on more than one occasion.

In either case, it doesn't matter much because in my original post, I said...

this is a setting where, generally speaking, when supernatural power comes out to play, people can tell by looking at it (unless whoever's behind it is doing something to hide it).

I don't make absolute statements if I can avoid it. They're impossible to defend because there is always an exception and, of course, always the possibility that I've missed something or are just plain wrong.

Faith powers are tricky to nail down anyway. They may or may not be subject to the same standards as other supernatural powers--they're off in their own subsection, for one, and when your powerset's major sponsor is a guy who lists "works in mysterious ways" as part of his MO, one could easily say that counts under "doing something to hide it."

Hold on, that's my line. Do you still disagree with me?

If you're willing to say that the "problems" with Claws can be more or less solved by taking a power that costs no refresh (Human Guise or Human Form), then we can agree on that.

[Sanctaphrax]

No. I've posted repeatedly stating the way it's written, and why it's written that way. It is not the same thing.

Okay.

So do you actually disagree with me or not?

Please explain your position before this goes any further.

[Mr. Death]

Okay.

So do you actually disagree with me or not?

Er...could you specify what it is you're asking about here?

Please explain your position before this goes any further.

My position is to take the powers as they were written, because they were written to reflect the realities of the setting. Or at least, if you're going to reflavor a power, it ought to be in line with the original power's parameters, up to and including the narrative role of the power.

I'm not saying that the powers as written are good, or balanced, or bad, or imbalanced. I'm saying they were written the way they're written for reasons that should not be ignored if you're going to stay true to the setting.

[Sanctaphrax]

So, you're not saying that it's well-written?

If so, then I guess this whole argument was a massive waste of time.

[Mr. Death]

So, you're not saying that it's well-written?

If so, then I guess this whole argument was a massive waste of time.

I'm saying that I'm not judging it (the RAW, that is). I think the rulebook is very well written, in fact, as far as reflecting the realities of the setting, and reflecting the realities of the setting is what is important to me more than whether everything is balanced, so I don't judge on whether everything is balanced. It's simply not something I feel qualified to judge. If I'm judging it at all, I'm judging it on the basis of, "Is that how it works in the setting?"

[Sanctaphrax]

Okay, this was all a gigantic waste of time then. Because even if I'm completely right and can prove it perfectly, you don't care.

Anyway...I don't share your excessive humility. I know of many ways that I could make the game better.

Dedicated fans who care about mechanics usually do...every year I spend here exposes more problems to fix. I have it easier than the D&D guys or the Shadowrun guys or the Exalted guys, though.

Anyway! Now for an expanded Hexing table. It works identically to the canon one, but it's got more steps.

1-2. As canon.
3. Modern electronics.
4. Modern cars, basic electronics.
5. Fancy guns, fancy cars, very simple electronics.
6. Normal cars and ovens. Medicines and complex chemicals.
7. Normal guns, old cars, pretty much anything that uses gas.
8. Fancy steam engines, simple guns, and mechanical watches. (Unbeknownst to the world, many of the best Swiss watch companies are kept afloat by rich and hexing-prone elder wizards.)
9. Wind-up toys, less intricate clockwork stuff. Ordinary steam engines. Magnets.
10. Simple chemicals, like matches. Lanterns and oil lamps. Church-tower clocks. Musical instruments.
11. Ordinary sailing ships, advanced non-firearm weapons. Wooden carts.
12. Pretty much anything with moving parts, including ropes and pulleys. Plows and horse accoutrements.
13. Immobile technology like swords and suits of armour. Normal clothing.
14. Shovels, chairs, and buckets.
15. Single piece items like spoons. Robes. (Powerful wizards can't wear pants, because they fall apart.)
16. Rocks.

This isn't terribly careful work, so feel free to criticize brutally. I'm sure it has issues.

[eri]

Great! and thanks. (and the last three... *snrk*)

But a point of critizism. You seem to be basing your scale on complexity of the invention. Now that's not necessarily wrong, but I think it's more likely that it's based on the time the invention was introduced to the general public. We discussed this earlier in the thread, coming to the conclusion that it's probably the wizards disbelief in something he's not really familiar with that causes it to malfunction. This can be corroborated by the fact that older wizards hex more stuff that younger ones. (Also, Butters has a theory about electromagnetism or something that may or may not overlap.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, that's a valid perspective on hexing. But I think of it somewhat differently. To me, hexing is the result of random drift in physics resulting from the vagaries of a mortal mind commanding magic.

The difference shouldn't matter too too much, but if it bugs you feel free to make whatever changes you want to what I wrote. I doubt I'll be able to help you much with that, though, because my historical knowledge is pretty weak.

[Mr. Death]

Okay, this was all a gigantic waste of time then. Because even if I'm completely right and can prove it perfectly, you don't care.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I said a few times before that I wasn't judging the rules or mechanics--just discussing them and getting a better understanding of them.

Anyway...I don't share your excessive humility. I know of many ways that I could make the game better.

Perhaps you should. I don't mean any disrespect, and I'm sure you're good at this, but remember the game was made by professionals at making games, while you are a young hobbyist. Believe me (and I can't believe I'm playing the wise-old-man card, but here we are...), I was a lot like you--sure that I was totally right, and totally unmoving. Humility is a good thing. Just consider that maybe the people who put it together had reasons for putting it together the way they did, and consider that you might not be right about how you can make the game better.

As to the hexing, I think it's a mix of the complexity vs. the age of the wizard as compared to the age of the tech. I think the book mentions that, for example, a wizard from the 1700s is going to hex a lot more stuff than one born today.