Dark influences on Harry

[Jay051684]

These nonmagical examples might not count; I'm not sure.  I guess I never grasped why murdering by magic does more harm to the soul than just general murder.  I get why invading someone's mind/free will does some terrible damage, but it seems to me that murder is murder, and it stains the soul, whatever the weapon.

I think it's because you are using the forces of creation to destroy. If I murder someone, it's bad. But if I take the very essence that shapes and creates life, and twist it in order to kill someone, that's so much worse. At least, that's how I read it.

[Richard_Chilton]

See, I never liked that part. It wasn't his first cold blooded killing. He killed Grevanes drummer (for the life of me I can't remember his name).

Sorry - I should have been more specific.  The text I quote (from Proven Guilty) is about Harry's murder of the former nickelhead that Harry had tagged as Liver Spots.  Liver Spots was in bad shape.  He was aging fast, had just had the stuffing kicked out of him, and if left alone would have probably died soon.  Even if he had recovered from that beating he maybe a month, if that.

But Harry didn't leave him alone.  He killed Liver Spots, murdering a defenseless, helpless, old man.  It was an evil old man, one that wanted to form another partnership with one of the Fallen, but helpless and on the way out.

Harry gave into his rage and anger.  He was probably justified - this time.  But beyond the feelings about killing that time, Harry had to wonder if he would do that again.  Wonder if he would be justified next time.  Wonder about what sort of man he was becoming.  Wonder about what other bad calls he would make.

And then there were Harry's insecurities.  For most of his adult life the people who should have been his peers and mentors (the White Council) had been watching him for signs that he was evil - tainted by the killing of his first master.  Looking back on that murder, Harry had to wonder if his detractors had been right.  Was he going to become a Dark Wizard or Out Of Control Mad Dog Warlock? Killing that man had felt like the right thing to do - so how could Harry even trust his feelings in the future?

If he had never have done that... I can see Harry killing Slate and telling himself that it was a mercy killing (which it was) and that he was only doing it for his daughter (which he was) and otherwise excusing and rationalising the act.  But I can't see him killing Susan without first having killed Liver Spots.  She was someone he loved.  As he killed Susan, Harry hated himself for doing it - but he did it.  He knew that he had to kill her, that it was the only way to save their daughter, but without that first cold blooded killing under his belt I think that Harry would have hesitated for too long and lost his chance.

And that's why I think the stain from the murder is slowly spreading, making it far worse than touching the coin.

Richard

[DragonEyes]

Ahh. Got it. I was refering to the fact that in Changes Harry himself sees Slate as his first cold blooded killing.

[Veritas]

If he had never have done that... I can see Harry killing Slate and telling himself that it was a mercy killing (which it was) and that he was only doing it for his daughter (which he was) and otherwise excusing and rationalising the act.

Richard

Mercy killing? Look I like Harry but Harry only killed slate for power to rescue his daughter. Harry did not care about Slate's suffering. In PG Slate literally begs Harry to kill him ( Slate has his sanity at this point). Harry didn't want to kill him because he wanted Slate to suffer. I don't have my copy of PG but that was how the scene played out at Arctis Tor. He thinks to himself that he would like to see ways in which Slate's suffering is prolonged. I found the scene where he was hesistating killing slate in Changes weird. Now when Slate's mind is gone is when he kills Slate instead of giving Slate the mercy in PG.

Again I like Harry but I find his monologue in Changes about taking Lloyd Slates life hypocritical when in PG he was more than happy to let slate be tortured for as long as Mab wanted.

[Oirthir]

if you define cold blooded as without anger (and I do), then it was

[Piotr1600]

A little OT:
Harry killing Cassius can't truly be considered a "cold blooded killing" in my opinion.
The simple fact that Cassius was a competent sorcerer means that even if he was on his way out in a month (or even the next few minutes) Cassius was an existential threat to Harry until Cassius was dead.  In my opinion, that makes it - however cold or not it might have been - self-defense.

But I do agree the killing did leave a mark on Harry - because I'm pretty sure that death curses leave marks...

[dimpwnc]

See, I never liked that part. It wasn't his first cold blooded killing. He killed Grevanes drummer (for the life of me I can't remember his name). Granted, the guy had been cutting on him, so it wasn't exactly without cause, but it was certainly a killing not in self-defence. He was already safe by then. Also granted, it was Mouse that did the killing, but Harry was the mind behind the deed.

Not trying to get into an argument about the nature of the killing of slate, but imho Harry is wrong about it being his first cold killing, even if it was a step about what he'd done before.

Dragoneyes--
Yes, that is one of the two killings I was talking about from DB in my first post, which proceed to haunt him in PG.
The person he kills is named Quintus "Snakeboy" Cassius.  He also kills Corpsetaker without remorse.
He does describe these as his first "cold" killings.  I think the thing that distinguishes the death of Slate is that Slate is not currently, nor has recently, threatened him and Harry kills him, not to avoid a threat or protect others, or even out of fury after being recently tortured, but to gain power.

[knnn]

Making Demonreach into a sanctum is bound to leave a stain of some sort.

Other possibles:
- Being raped by the Red Court at the end of GP might count ("the monsters got me").
- The minute of lost memories at the end of Changes.
- That cookie that Odin offers him (Changes).
- We know that the ruby his mother left him is trouble.
- Breaking his Word to Lea a number of times.

...and then there was that ketchup stain in his bathrobe he mentions (in SK?)... 

[TheCuriousFan]

- We know that the ruby his mother left him is trouble.

How so?

[knnn]

How so?

Doesn't Lea say that the gem comes with some sort of price, and that his mother had headaches after?

[dimpwnc]

I think it's because you are using the forces of creation to destroy. If I murder someone, it's bad. But if I take the very essence that shapes and creates life, and twist it in order to kill someone, that's so much worse. At least, that's how I read it.

I'm sure you're right and that sounds like Harry's (and JB's) take on it...I just don't get why it's worse to pervert the powers of creation than, say, to use a dog--the absolute quintessence of love, humility, and overall goodness, in my opinion--to maul and kill, somewhat twisting the role of the guardian, protector, and companion.

[TheCuriousFan]

Doesn't Lea say that the gem comes with some sort of price, and that his mother had headaches after?

Harry's mom lost the ability to sleep soundly, and IIRC Lea said the cost could be worse than that or it could be nothing.

[DragonEyes]

I'm sure you're right and that sounds like Harry's (and JB's) take on it...I just don't get why it's worse to pervert the powers of creation than, say, to use a dog--the absolute quintessence of love, humility, and overall goodness, in my opinion--to maul and kill, somewhat twisting the role of the guardian, protector, and companion.

Because dogs have been helping humans maul and kill for longer than human history?

[dimpwnc]

Because dogs have been helping humans maul and kill for longer than human history?

And in the Dresdenverse, I'll bet black magic or using magic to harm others has been used for about as long. I know I'm not correct or canon in my opinion about killing people with magic in the Dresdenverse, though....but I guess the conclusion is that non-magical killings still count as stains, if potentially less significant ones.

[DragonEyes]

And in the Dresdenverse, I'll bet black magic or using magic to harm others has been used for about as long. I know I'm not correct or canon in my opinion about killing people with magic in the Dresdenverse, though....but I guess the conclusion is that non-magical killings still count as stains, if potentially less significant ones.

If you look at Murphy, with her tattered Angel look in the Sight, I would absolutely agree with you. She hasn't killed with Magic yet it has left its mark on her soul.