Questions

[DragonEyes]

Yeah, but I think the two are not independent. Altering the route caused the change in result, because a route that didn't include a chat with Uriel led straight and only to suicide after becoming the Winter Knight. Uriel was what gave Harry the hope for a future.

The difference in what Harry does first seems odd, if you focus on the Winter Knight thing vs. the suicide thing(it did to me too, until a few minutes ago), because why wouldn't he have tried to call Uriel both times? But if the primary difference in Harry's decision tree was simply that the Whisper made him feel like such a shit that he didn't deserve to call on Uriel, then the rest of what happened falls naturally from that fact. Without Uriel, suicide; with Uriel, no suicide.

Agreed on that. My original point, way back when, was that the words were calculated to push him quickly into choosing the WK power and thus suicide alongside it. It was a counter to an disagreement over whether the words were meant for suiciding or for becoming the WK. I still say that it was intended to accomplish both goals simultaneously.

[DARTHYAM]

One: The Red court was planning to perform the ritual between 12:00 and 12:30. The final battle at Chichen Itza was probably about 30 minutes, and Harry and Arianna had their fight at about 12:30 give or take. So why is it almost dawn when they finally leave the site and head back to Chicago? Given that it's october dawn would be around 5:00am or 4:30. Why the hell were they there for hours

[wyltok]

It's one of the mysteries of the book. Harry remembers everything up until he uses the knife (may God forgive him). He's got missing time from that point until it's almost dawn. Considering the powers at play in that location during that time, some of our local theory-weavers have proposed that a deal or two may have taken place in that time period. Since Harry didn't think to check his memories while he had perfect recall as a ghost, we probably won't find out for a while.

[Mr. Death]

Harry may well have simply been catatonic for the whole time, and the rest of his group waited. Maybe to give him time, maybe because they were themselves injured and needed time to recover, maybe they were scared of what he might do if they did approach him.

[DragonEyes]

It's one of the mysteries of the book. Harry remembers everything up until he uses the knife (may God forgive him). He's got missing time from that point until it's almost dawn. Considering the powers at play in that location during that time, some of our local theory-weavers have proposed that a deal or two may have taken place in that time period. Since Harry didn't think to check his memories while he had perfect recall as a ghost, we probably won't find out for a while.

Harry was only missing a couple of minutes. The rest of the time was him sitting on the steps with Maglet while his allies mopped up.

[Cozarkian]

The whisper didn't change the route, it just added the step of calling Kincaid.

Whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. I need to make sure I am stopped before that happens. Calls Molly in to help.

After-whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. Calls Uriel.

Harry wasn't going to skip calling Uriel, he was just being realistic because he knew Uriel wouldn't help. And if by some miracle, Uriel did help, when Molly found out he wasn't the WK, she would have given the memory back so Harry could call off the hit. In fact, the hit was on the new WK, so if Harry didn't become the WK, Kincaid wouldn't have shot him (it's not unreasonable to think Kincaid would have a way of learning whether Harry actually became the WK).

[DragonEyes]

The whisper didn't change the route, it just added the step of calling Kincaid.

Whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. I need to make sure I am stopped before that happens. Calls Molly in to help.

After-whisper thought: I'll call Uriel first, but he won't be able to help, so I'll call Mab and turn into a monster. Calls Uriel.

Harry wasn't going to skip calling Uriel, he was just being realistic because he knew Uriel wouldn't help. And if by some miracle, Uriel did help, when Molly found out he wasn't the WK, she would have given the memory back so Harry could call off the hit. In fact, the hit was on the new WK, so if Harry didn't become the WK, Kincaid wouldn't have shot him (it's not unreasonable to think Kincaid would have a way of learning whether Harry actually became the WK).

He never reasoned that he would call Uriel after the whisper. It was only when the whisper was taken away that he arrived at that decision. I just reread the entire scene and Uriel isn't mentioned once after the whisper. It is only in the memory without the whisper that Uriel comes up.

Edit:
Okay, I went back and looked at Uriel's exposition of the Shadow and he's pretty sure of what it was.

Uriel looked at me and smiled faintly. "It added enough anger, enough self-recrimination, even guilt, and enough despair to your deliberations to make you decide that destroying yourself was the only option left to you. It took your freedom away."

Based on that quote, its pretty clear that Uriel believes the only real change was the suicide. I'll defer to his judgement since my argument was all about nuance.

[Cozarkian]

He never reasoned that he would call Uriel after the whisper. It was only when the whisper was taken away that he arrived at that decision. I just reread the entire scene and Uriel isn't mentioned once after the whisper. It is only in the memory without the whisper that Uriel comes up.

I recall it as more of a contextual conclusion than an express statement. Harry isn't outlining exactly what he is going to do, he's just skipping to the inevitable outcome - Harry becomes WK - and then setting up his suicide plan before going through the motions (the first motion will be calling Uriel and having his plea for help rejected).

[Mr. Death]

Based on that quote, its pretty clear that Uriel believes the only real change was the suicide. I'll defer to his judgement since my argument was all about nuance.

I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.

[DragonEyes]

I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.

See... that's about the argument I'd been making and I had just about given up. I also think that nuance is important.

[Paladino]

I disagree--he used the word "destroy," not "kill." Harry felt that becoming the Winter Knight would destroy him--destroy Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, the man he had been and replace it with a monster. He chose to avoid that destruction by dying. There's a distinction there that needs to be made.

Does not change the fact that the whisper didn't push him to accept the WK mantle, only how to deal with it.

[AcornArmy]

See... that's about the argument I'd been making and I had just about given up. I also think that nuance is important.

Does not change the fact that the whisper didn't push him to accept the WK mantle, only how to deal with it.

These two statements don't contradict one another. And I agree with both of them, myself. I just think that, while the Whisperer's ultimate goal was that Harry should kill himself-- and it used the necessity of him becoming the Winter Knight to get him to that point-- the only thing that the Whisper changed directly was whether or not Harry would talk to Uriel.

At first I was thinking along the lines of, Harry was going to be the Winter Knight regardless of whether or not the Whisperer said anything to him, and probably regardless of whether or not he talked to Uriel. That is, if Harry hadn't been influenced by either one, he still would have become the WK. But then I realized that that third option was never on the table; we got to see how Harry would behave without the Whisperer's seven words, and Harry chose to call Uriel. Which meant that the only paths he was ever likely to have taken were the one in which he talked to Uriel and the one in which he heard the Whisperer. In my opinion, those are the two main points of difference, because those were the two points at which he made his decisions.

Basically, I think Harry was already on the road to killing himself, but, because of his choices, he was going to be saved by Uriel giving him hope. The Whisperer closed off the branch of Harry's future which would have given Harry hope, so Harry went with his prior inclination, which was to assume the worst about himself becoming the Winter Knight, which in turn led to his decision to kill himself.

Though, you know, thinking about it here, I'm having a hard time remembering why this minute distinction between theories matters at all. Most of us seem to be thinking pretty much the same thing, we just seem to have different ideas about which point in the chain of events was most important.

[DARTHYAM]

I guess in hindsights the grey council removed the metacapacitors that were meant to be used (they find the base that leads to mexico from the records) or tried to remove as much of the evidence as they could (or arrange for the captives to find a way home. The kid got plenty of sleep, though I wonder why she chose that after narrowly escaping the sacrificial blade that claimed her mother and the one the red king and arianna planned to use (the one that susan smashed. arianna never got to use it because Harry killed her before she got her shot). But the reds still left a shitload of corpses behind after the battle. I guess big red and the rest of the really conspicuous ones would have been burned

[TheCuriousFan]

I guess in hindsights the grey council removed the metacapacitors that were meant to be used (they find the base that leads to mexico from the records) or tried to remove as much of the evidence as they could (or arrange for the captives to find a way home. The kid got plenty of sleep, though I wonder why she chose that after narrowly escaping the sacrificial blade that claimed her mother and the one the red king and arianna planned to use (the one that susan smashed. arianna never got to use it because Harry killed her before she got her shot). But the reds still left a shitload of corpses behind after the battle. I guess big red and the rest of the really conspicuous ones would have been burned

Wan't there a mention in Changes about how mortal authorities found all the bodies and conspiracy theories abound about what happened in Chichen Itza in the Dresdenverse?

[Arjan]

Wan't there a mention in Changes about how mortal authorities found all the bodies and conspiracy theories abound about what happened in Chichen Itza in the Dresdenverse?

But nothing about giant birds. The kenku must have evacuated their own dead.

And all the weapons old and modern. All the jewelry and strange personal possessions. Some cleanup was certainly done but the mess was so big that not everything could be dealt with.