Questions

[wyltok]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The way you write this, the prison did nothing except motivate the Shadow to change tatics and pretend it was working.  IMO, until Harry built the prison, Lasciel had an active link to her shadow in Harry, and once he built the prison, the link was sort of severed, and the Shadow was severly hampered in it's options of how to influence Harry.

If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him.  But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.

You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?

[prince lotore]

She did say she had to wait for harry to use hell fire to openly communicate with him. now i dont know if the limitation was because of the circle or that he activly didnt want the coin and was taking steps to limit its interaction with him.

[knnn]

It goes like this:

1.  Harry touches the coin, and Lasciel gets a chance to talk to him, influence him.
2.  Lasciel knows that there's a chance Harry will cut her voice/power off using a circle, so she places a semi-autonomous entity in his brain.  If Harry never cuts Lasciel off, then the entity merely acts as a hand-puppet for everything Lasciel wants.  However, if Harry does succeed in cutting Lasciel's direct influence off, then the entity has enough AI to act autonomously until contact is restored.  Note also that the entity has its own power-source somewhere inside Harry - so it doesn't get cut off when the circle is empowered.

6.  Harry changes the _summoning_ circle in his basement.  It is never mentioned that he changes the (different, underground) circle that cut off Lasciel until Lash is already "dead".

7.  While the Fallen are vastly powerful, the amount of energy they can project on Earth when bound in a coin is obviously limited.  Heck, one of them dies by drowning.  How pathetic is that?

[khatre]

points ..
2) is there any evidence that Lasciel contacted Lash or Harry after the coin was put in the circle and before Lasciel came back in GS?
3) Lash admits that she would Try to trick Harry but with the exception of the Shiela identity did Lash ever actually trick Harry? All she ever did was prove that she could force him to jump out of a window if she wanted then she pulled back before he actually jumped. What trick actually worked?
4) Lasciel being trapped in the circle fits the plot as easily. Lash can not gain independence and fall in a kind of love with Harry if Lasciel is constantly in contact with her.
5) When was the last time Lasciel had a coin holder? If it was After 197whatever then she could easily have known the song and what it means.
6) Harry did not change the circle between dropping the coin in it and when Lash "died" and Lascials brand vanished from his hand.
7) There are circles made to hold beings as powerful as fallen. The circle made to hold the loup garu was easily powerful enough and the ward to hold angles (fallen or otherwise) was only a part of that circle. The Vatican (or whoever the Knights work for) Should have done something  like this long long ago. Unfortunately they do not seem to work well with wizards (or any non WG powers).

I don't want to seem like a broken record but i really want to believe that Lash was her own person capable of making a choice to save Harry at the possible cost of her own "life".

[knnn]

5) When was the last time Lasciel had a coin holder? If it was After 197whatever then she could easily have known the song and what it means.

For that matter, why couldn't she have pulled it from Harry's brain at the moment of contact?  We see that "Sheila" knows where the last two copies of "Der Erlking", are in Bock's store even though Harry isn't currently aware of them (the assumption is that she pulled them from his previous memories of glancing over the shelf).

[Serack]

You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?

First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM.  So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.

Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.

The runes still glowed with a sullen fire, though it was slowly fading.  Tiny, white whisps of wood smoke curled up from it, sharp in my nose.  It hadn't ever done that before

If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry.  Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree.  (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)

[Serack]

I had actually thought having a discrete denarian "Shadow" was unique to Harry's predicament because of his imprisoning the coin until Nic directly addressed it in SmF. 

However, in WN, Harry and Lash discuss how nobody had ever fought a shadow's influence for so long...  I always figured one of the reasons why Harry had done so well was because of the "prison" which in my mind made the "Shadow" discrete and cut off from the original entity, sort of how knnn describes.  OTOH, Nic's behavior makes me think that I might be giving too much weight to the prison...

Still I am not even close to convinced that it was without value, expecially considering what Malcolm said in the dream.  But I could be entirely wrong.

There is certainly something going on about the Denarians that I don't understand because I am unsure how Lasciel could have wispered to Harry in Changes...  Jim's answer to AA's question at last years BBB Q&A only served to confuse me further.

What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.

[Ms Duck]

My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.

[khatre]

My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.

Just because the church could does not mean they would. Even if they did put their collected coins in circles they have traitors in the church willing to get them out of the circles fairly easily. Circles can stop magic not a pickaxe.

[wyltok]

First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM.  So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.

That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).

Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:

1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.

Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).

Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.

If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry.  Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree.  (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)

... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.

[DragonEyes]

My theor on changes ws that since it occured under holy ground, lasciel has a new host in the building. The same person who hired stevie d, most likely.... If a circle could contain the spirit of a fallen then surely the church could. Ergo the armument about the circle working is self contradictory... when lash tricked harry, one of the tricks was to stop sining on cue. And according to michael, all coins leave shadows, allways.

I had actually thought having a discrete denarian "Shadow" was unique to Harry's predicament because of his imprisoning the coin until Nic directly addressed it in SmF. 

The way to get rid of a shadow is to give up your magic. That suggests those without magic also lack shadows. Shadows may be something that the coins uses as insurance against the coin being put into a circle, turning the magic of the user against those most likely to have a defense.  To me, that suggests that  other magic users have used circles before.

[Serack]

That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).

I had to look that up.  I like those terms!  I do tend to do a lot of that, and I notice that it doesn't always jive with a lot of people's perferred method of theorizing.  Me, I try to use all the tools avilable to me, and that includes stuff Jim has said about his writing process.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:

1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.

Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).

Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.

This isn't quite what I mean, but the difference (or similarities) might be subtle. 

_{Btw, I am in the habit of only referring to Lasciel's Shadow as "Lash" when referring to her from WN or beyond.  Lash was an entity that identified herself seperately from Lasciel, while Lasciel's original Shadow did not truely consider herself a discrete entity.}

Ok back to the consequenses of the prison.  This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry, but that those options expanded as she managed to corrupt him.  Origionally I think it likely that her only tool of corruption available was to make Hellfire available to his subconcious.  However, it was not until the events of BR that he was in a situation stressfull enough that his subconcious actually used it.  This usage is what finally opened him up to her communing with his subconcious.

I stared at him [Harry's subconcious] and said, "You've been talking to her behind my back."
"For months," he said calmly.  "It was only polite.  After all, you wanted nothing to do with her."

With this happening, she apparently gained enough influence to induce hallucinations... Thus Shela.  And as Harry slides further down the slippery slope of corruption, the Shadow gained more means of influencing him.  However, I do not think of the shadow as becoming stronger, but rather gaining more chinks in Harry's armor to squeeze through.

... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.

Hmmmm.  Yah, that doesn't really hold up well as evidence that the opportunity wasn't there until that point.

How about this quote:   

"How many shadows have ever stayed in a host like me for longer than a few weeks, huh?  Longer than three years?"
"Never," Lasciel's shadow replied in a near-whisper.  "Granted you are unusually stiff-necked, for a mortal.  Suicidally so, in fact."

[Cozarkian]

Ok back to the consequenses of the prison.  This distinction might be subtle, but I don't think Lasciel's Shadow was weakened by the prison so much as she became very constrained in what options she had for influencing Harry, but that those options expanded as she managed to corrupt him.  Origionally I think it likely that her only tool of corruption available was to make Hellfire available to his subconcious.  However, it was not until the events of BR that he was in a situation stressfull enough that his subconcious actually used it.  This usage is what finally opened him up to her communing with his subconcious.

If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.

From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.

[Serack]

If I may lend my support, I'd like to point out that Harry's circle was a conscious act of rejection but as Michael (or was Uriel) pointed out, subconsciously Harry wasn't ready to completly give up the temptation, which is why he kept the coin buried instead of turning it over.

From this, we correctly conclude the shadow could not openly defy Harry's act of free will (sealing the coin), but as Harry subconsciously wanted the coin to be available, the Shadow could make Hellfire available to his subconscious. Then, when Harry subconsciouslly used Hellfire, his subconscious became open to temptation. When Harry consciously used Hellfire, his conscious became open to temptation.

This is a much better way of saying one of my earlier points

If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him.  But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.

[Cozarkian]

This is a much better way of saying one of my earlier points

That was basically my goal. People think differently, so I was trying to restate the idea you expressed in different terms by emphasizing the parallels that can be drawn from Harry's and the Shadow's actions (also JB has expressly drawn a parallet with Lash's sacrifice, so it makes sense that he would have deliberately done the same with the Shadow's actions).