Questions

[TonyA]

OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.

1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned? 

2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.

Thanks

Curator's note:  This topic contains a lot of great discussion on the nature of the Prison Harry built for Lasciel's coin.

[TheCuriousFan]

OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.

1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned? 

2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.

Thanks

Didn't he draw a circle around the wet cement? And its not the object that breaks the circle, its the will behind it.

[TonyA]

Didn't he draw a circle around the wet cement? And its not the object that breaks the circle, its the will behind it.

Nope!
"I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed
energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
I dumped two buckets of cement into the hole and smoothed it until it was level with the rest of my floor. After that, I
hurried out of the lab and shut the door behind me."

[TheCuriousFan]

That's odd.

[Paladino]

Two possibilities came to mind for me,

One is about the williness to break the circle. In SF Harry wanted to disrupt the circle, so trowing the film can did it, note that he only disrupetd the spell, the circle was still there, if victor would start again for example he wouldn't need to draw a new one. In DM, he did not had the intention to break the magic energies of the circle, so they didn't break.

So it could be that there is need for intention to break the magic of a circle just trowing something in to it. If he has for example spilled the cement over the steel ring, it might have broken the circle anyway, because it would have damaged the circle it self, not the circle energies.

Or option number two, Jim made a mistake..

[DragonEyes]

OK, I am reading the series for the second time and have a couple of questions.

1) Why did agent Benn's Hexbelt turn to goo (Fool Moon), everyone elses had to be burned? 

Maybe hers was made of NN stuff while everyone elses was more solid. Might point to two different sponsors. I'll have to reread it see if there are any other clues.

[Serack]

2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.

Thanks

First I'll give the WoJ on the subject, which is quite good.

In SF p.66, Harry draws the circle to contain Toot, memorizes it's exact location, then covers it with leaves and twigs to hide it from view. Toot eats, the circle closes - everything works. However, on p.175 (when he and Susan are being attacked by the demon), Harry goes nuts ensuring that every scrap of paper is clear from the circle in his lab (the copper circle he installed in the floor - he should remember where it is... ) prior to activating it. I've gotten the impression that a circle's perimeter needs to be clear before activating it. Is this an inconsistancy, or am I missing something?

Something to do with the environment here, too.  You can't have any foreign objects interrupt the circle.  But since the circle was being made out of earth and twigs and leaves, it isn't going to be disrupted by earth and twigs and leaves.  It still could have been /broken/ by one of them, if any of them had actually marred the circle drawn in the earth, so that it wasn't a complete shape any more (not just fallen over it).  For that matter, if Toot had scuffed his foot through the circle on accident on the way in, that could have blown the trap, too.

Different situation with a big copper circle in a smooth concrete floor.  I mean, I suppose Harry could have made a circle out of, I dunno, dirty laundry or something, and other dirty laundry laying across it could obscure it without breaking it.  But then if the wrong sock gets shifted, pift, no circle any more.  Much safer to go with the big metal circle in the floor that you know isn't going to be broken, and just take extra pains to make sure nothing falls across it.

Jim

Ok with the obligitory (for me) WoJ quote out of the way, I will give my interpretation of this situation.

It's actually quite a good question.  The way I look at it though, is that the physical circle is a mental aid.  I get the idea that if a wizard went through the effort of imagining the circle in his mind, that can get the job done... it's just easier to draw it and then his mind knows it's actually there and that mental effort can then go towards the actual spell's working...  IMO, each physical object that is used for Harry's magic, be it his staff, or a complex multi stage circle with lots of ritual objects, is in itself not magical, it just gives him physical constructs that he can support his own mental workings onto like a firm foundation or chanel to contain it with and shape what he wants out of his magic...

Intent is key here.  The prison was intended to be encased in cement.  Every circle we have seen has had some medium that it passes through.  Typically air, but in this case, the circle was intended to be emersed in cement.  In fact, the cement was a deliberate part of the... prison constructed in Harry's mind.  So in this case, pouring cement on top of an already activated circle that is intended to serve as a prision, does not interfere with it, but rather makes it stronger, since the spell is fundamentally mental construct on his mind.  The cement serves as a seal on the vault both physically and metaphysically.

Of course that's just my opinion/interpretation.

Another related question that I have pondered a few times though, is why can the prison spell withstand so many sunrises and sunsets that typically degrade Harry's workings?  The best answer I can come up with for that is that somehow an empowered circle is a different kind of magic than the workings that are degraded by passing of the day, or somehow Harry is actively maintaining the prison in his mind through some effort...

[Paladino]

Another related question that I have pondered a few times though, is why can the prison spell withstand so many sunrises and sunsets that typically degrade Harry's workings?  The best answer I can come up with for that is that somehow an empowered circle is a different kind of magic than the workings that are degraded by passing of the day, or somehow Harry is actively maintaining the prison in his mind through some effort...

I'd say that since the circle is inside a treshhold, in the books many wardens are built over threshold because they are a constant power source fulled by the people living there, so we could arguee that the dawn afect the treshold witch heals itself everyday. That's why an abandoned house would not maintain a threshold, it would in time be eaten away by dawn.

 And as for passing of time, I'd say diferente from the enchanted object, a circle is a perfect structure there is no energy loss on it...




 

[Serack]

Didn't he draw a circle around the wet cement? And its not the object that breaks the circle, its the will behind it.

Nope!
"I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed
energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
I dumped two buckets of cement into the hole and smoothed it until it was level with the rest of my floor. After that, I
hurried out of the lab and shut the door behind me."

I had already read all the responses, but I am going back to this one...

I think this passage near the beginning of the next book (BR) is what TCF is thinking of.

A worktable ran down the middle of the room, and at its far end was a comparatively recent concrete patch that did not match the rest of the floor.  The patch was surrowunded by the sumoning circle set into the stone.  I'd splurged on replacing the old ring with a new one made out of silver and I'd moved everything in the room as far from it as I could.

The thing I'd locked up under the circle had been quiet since the night I had sealed it into a spirit-prison, but when it came to entombing a fallen angel, I was pretty sure that there was no such thing as too much caution.

That passage is a little vague, but it does imply that the circle above the cement (particularly the improved circle) is an integral part of the prison of the fallen angel.  Really, though, I think Jim was just trying to give the reader a quick rehash of the significance of the prison without doing a boring recounting of what he did to construct the prison.  The details are not important, what is is the effort that was put into it.

I'd say that since the circle is inside a treshhold, in the books many wardens are built over threshold because they are a constant power source fulled by the people living there, so we could arguee that the dawn afect the treshold witch heals itself everyday. That's why an abandoned house would not maintain a threshold, it would in time be eaten away by dawn.

 And as for passing of time, I'd say diferente from the enchanted object, a circle is a perfect structure there is no energy loss on it...

The threshold idea is a great explenation for that...  Usually wards are constructed /on/ thresholds using them as an anchor, but containing a magical working /within/ a threshold could quite concevably help keep it fresh.  There are actually quite a few WoJ's on thresholds and wards that might be pertinant.  brb.

[Serack]

I remember there being something somewhere about a threshold helping maintain a ward's power, but I'm not sure if that could be within the canon, since I can't find it in my WoJ compilation.  Here's the best WoJ I have on the subject.

No wards on the office.  To build a ward, you have to use a threshold of some kind.  (Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.)  No wards on Harry's office in the books for that reason.

The office doesn't have a whole hell of a lot of "home" energy around it.  Virtually none.  I mean, a hotel room would have more.  Harry could probably sling up some kind of tripwire-rings-a-bell equivalent ward, if he wanted to, but even that would be tricky and he has better ways to spend his time and effort.

However.  To repeat something I have SAID OVER AND EFFING OVER, THE TV SHOW IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE BOOK.  NOR SHOULD IT BE.

I mean, Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to type that?  OF COURSE, if you PERSIST in basing every evaluation of the show by the yardstick of "how close is it to the books" it isn't going to measure up terribly well. 

This is very nearly as frustrating as reading these huge disappointed reviews of the Codex Alera because "they aren't like the Dresden books at all."  Which is exactly true.  The Alera books are TERRIBLE Dresden novels.  Apples make AWFUL oranges.  DUH!

Rant, rant, rantity rantrantrant!

Jim

[khatre]

If a circle is contained inside a box and that box is later encased in cement the circle should not be broken since the cement never comes into direct contact with the circle.
That was my assumption but i could be wrong 

[Paladino]

Since we are asking questions, Ghosts are destroyed by Dawn, and other creatures of the nevernever can also be wipped by dawn (I think Dresden mention in SF that he dawn would handle the frog demon, but that it was to far away).

It's explained in the books that creatures from the nevernever grab materia from the nevernever to build their bodies in the real world, even the phages in PG turns to slime after Harry destroy them in Splattercon!!!

So, how would the fae handle the dawn if they got caught on it? Shouldn't it disrupt the their conection to the nevernever and sending they back there? Or are they only weakened like a wizard crossing a threshold?

[khatre]

Fae (like Toot) have mass and dawn does not effect them. (as far as i know) Stronger fae (like Mab or Lea) also seem to have mass BUT they may have had an origin outside of the NN.
The fae that have been effected by dawn do not have bodies or mass (Bob maby others i do not know about).

[Serack]

Since we are asking questions, Ghosts are destroyed by Dawn, and other creatures of the nevernever can also be wipped by dawn (I think Dresden mention in SF that he dawn would handle the frog demon, but that it was to far away).

It's explained in the books that creatures from the nevernever grab materia from the nevernever to build their bodies in the real world, even the phages in PG turns to slime after Harry destroy them in Splattercon!!!

So, how would the fae handle the dawn if they got caught on it? Shouldn't it disrupt the their conection to the nevernever and sending they back there? Or are they only weakened like a wizard crossing a threshold?

No, Faries are part mortal, so they have physical bodies.  Don't forget that RCV's leave remains when they die too.

Exactly what are the Outsiders?  Are they like the fae, or are they something else entirely?
They are something else entirely.  All the fae are part mortal.  There is some bit of mortal in every single one of the fae.  The Outsiders are something that comes from way beyond that.  Their more the generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles croud. 

[Paladino]

Fae (like Toot) have mass and dawn does not effect them. (as far as i know) Stronger fae (like Mab or Lea) also seem to have mass BUT they may have had an origin outside of the NN.
The fae that have been effected by dawn do not have bodies or mass (Bob maby others i do not know about).

I thoug about they having mass because their origin was outside the nevernever, but than it hit me, they are older and older than mankind, by the erlking talk in DB I understood that he was running around with the dinousaurs... So whatver migrated from the real world to the nevernever was something older than the dinousaurs.. How that evolved to what they are today is strange.. One would assume that whatever walked there did not have the inteligence the Fae have now a days, so how could two diferent especies, separeted from million years, in two totally diferent ambients are so similar (ok mankind and fae are diferente, but not as much as man kind and dinosaurs for example)..