Questions

[Serack]

They are certianly allowed to act to opose supernatural evil, but they play defense. Thats the whole point of the discussion with micheal in smf.. Harry wanted to go on offense and micheal said no. Being sent on a mission, with divine guidance, to save two people from a purely natural fire is not how they work. And in PG, there is plenty of evidence at least one fall..namshiel..was very much invlved.

That is rather... oblique.

I think it is a stretch to say that a fallen was certainly involved when Michael killed Sithorax, and Michael was still exhibiting some pretty strong patronage (that is, he seemed to be on the clock) when he pulled some pretty interesting tricks without the sword in GP. 

Also, Murph was undeniably on the clock as a knight when an archangel sock puppeted her at Chicken Pizza in Changes, and I didn't see any fallen around then either.

Point being, I doubt fallen involvement is absolutely necessary for a knight to be on the clock.  Of course I also doubt I may sway you on the matter.

[Arjan]

He had made the decision, even if he didn't remember why he made that decision.  But before he heard the words, it was hopeless, there was nothing he could do.  It was only after he was told it was all his fault was he willing to take that extra step.

But again, we've gone and done this over and over, nobody's getting their minds changed.

There were two decisions. The one about going to Mab and the one about killing himself.

As I see it he made both decisions before his memory was changed but because his memory was changed he had to make his first decision again. Besides every decision is only definitely made when you start acting and reach a point of no return.

Harry called Uriel to make sure he did not miss a better alternative and to get some sort of approval for his choice to make. But the real decision for the knighthood was made when he killed Slate.

[Ms Duck]

That is rather... oblique.

I think it is a stretch to say that a fallen was certainly involved when Michael killed Sithorax, and Michael was still exhibiting some pretty strong patronage (that is, he seemed to be on the clock) when he pulled some pretty interesting tricks without the sword in GP. 

Also, Murph was undeniably on the clock as a knight when an archangel sock puppeted her at Chicken Pizza in Changes, and I didn't see any fallen around then either.

Point being, I doubt fallen involvement is absolutely necessary for a knight to be on the clock.  Of course I also doubt I may sway you on the matter.

the dragon and reds count as 'general supernatural evil' so i shouldnt limit it to just fallen, perhaps i was unclear. Im basing this partly on JIm's comments about angels, and the things uriel said. that being so, ureil is kinda sneaky about bending the rules

but somehow I still suspect lasciel made harry trip off that ladder

the whole make him commit suicide thing isnt effective if the situtaion isnt hopeless, and it explains why snaya showed up then quite nicely-

the general idea is that much like summer opposes winter, the light opposes the dark- but as they fight on a much larger scale they also have more strignent rules.

in order to preservce free will, the angels pretty much have to wait until after the devils get involved

and whose to say the devils werent involve dsomehow in the red court? or sirothrax? I dont know of any rules saying the bad guys have to just use the fallen- uriel uses harry all the time, just because he's a good man.

[DragonEyes]

Mostly because I'm incapable of just letting something so wrong (or so I think, obviously) become the standard accepted opinion without saying something about it, really.

Harry is constantly afraid of becoming a monster. He has built up a defense against such a thing happening. He was sure that Mab would turn him into a monster eventually and he did not want that. He is also terrified of failure. He is perfectly willing to die to save other people, but to fail to save other people (especially when it is a girl and his blood, two things he is irrational about protecting) is something that would nearly break him. He was very brittle. The comment from the shadow was enough to crack him. Not only would he be a monster, but on present evidence he was a failure. His failure would mean that even if he could protect his daughter now, he couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't hurt her later.

The seven words weren't about becoming the WK or killing himself, they were about becoming the WK AND killing himself. Both decisions were made at once.

[TheCuriousFan]

The seven words weren't about becoming the WK or killing himself, they were about becoming the WK AND killing himself. Both decisions were made at once.

The whisper was to guarantee his death by having him arrange his death, he would have become Winter Knight regardless of the whisper.

[DragonEyes]

The whisper was to guarantee his death by having him arrange his death, he would have become Winter Knight regardless of the whisper.

You may be right, but based on the evidence, we can only conclude that the Whisper pushed him into both decisions. The phrasing of the whisper was to show that he was weak and a failure, but the decision to kill himself only came as part of concluding that he would have to accept becoming a monster. He had to make both decisions together.

Even if you argue that Molly's memory monkeying gave him a chance to make the same choice again, he took much longer to come to that conclusion, weighed his options and finally arrived at the same point. The whisper was probably aware of that, but it needed to push Harry into both decisions to get him to commit suicide. Harry wouldn't just kill himself. He'd make his life worth something first, make his death worthwhile. All I'm saying is that Harry needed to decide the one along with the other.

[Mr. Death]

but somehow I still suspect lasciel made harry trip off that ladder

Didn't something in the building explode and knock the ladder down, rather than Harry just tripping?

[Ms Duck]

Didn't something in the building explode and knock the ladder down, rather than Harry just tripping?

i dont remeber off the top of my head. any of the above would be easy for a fallen shadow to arainge.

[DragonEyes]

i dont remeber off the top of my head. any of the above would be easy for a fallen shadow to arainge.

Wait, shadow? Are you talking Lasciel or Lash?

[peregrine]

The whisper was to guarantee his death by having him arrange his death, he would have become Winter Knight regardless of the whisper.

And yet, no.  There was no mention or thought of becoming the Winter Knight before the whisper.  He had given up, and thought he was all out of ideas, before the whisper happened.

[Ms Duck]

Beg pardon, but he was considering it specifically in the scene in the lab prior to claling ivy. she told him to contact marcone first

as to the shadow- lasciel. I consider lash to be the parasite

[peregrine]

That is true.  Though my read of it is that he was considering her for information more than power, and I maintain that he had given up before the whisper.

[Ms Duck]

I think the whisper didnt change the WK decision, it convinced him to punish himself afterwards.

[TheCuriousFan]

That is true.  Though my read of it is that he was considering her for information more than power, and I maintain that he had given up before the whisper.

He considered the Darkhallow a possible means of getting his daughter back, do you really think he'd give up when he had the means to get his daughter back?

I think the whisper didnt change the WK decision, it convinced him to punish himself afterwards.

This.

[DragonEyes]

Beg pardon, but he was considering it specifically in the scene in the lab prior to claling ivy. she told him to contact marcone first

as to the shadow- lasciel. I consider lash to be the parasite

Right. Momentarily confused there.