The Laws of Magic and psychic abilities

[sinker]

I can see what Sancta is saying though. Domination can't not break the laws. So one would take domination and then within the same session probably take both lawbreaker powers.

Personally, Sancta I would just consider that consequences of the player's actions though. The player could choose to create a character that isn't dominating people and isn't almost guaranteed to be corrupted. Can you think of an instance where a player taking domination shouldn't be a corrupting or negative situation? Even if they are a creature that had that option I would still see them taking a step away from heroism and towards it's predatory nature.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be corrupted, I'm just saying that they should not have to spend Refresh on that corruption. Take an aspect.

[sinker]

I could see that working and would have little problem with that depending on the nature of the game.

[UmbraLux]

Are you advocating the non-dominational use of Domination? How is that possible?

A) Don't be human.  Or B) don't use it against humans or those you consider human.  Those exceptions have been noted previously.

But Refresh is a measure of character power. Every power should provide its value's worth. It it doesn't do anything useful, then it should just be an aspect.

Why?

Seriously, why?  That may be your vision but it doesn't appear to be Jim's and it's canonically not the RPG authors' vision.  To quote a highlighted statement in the book, "By taking such an action, you've altered your self-image and your beliefs - the very basis of you - to be the sort of person who breaks the Law."  The designers obviously thought that should twist both character beliefs (aspect) and powers (Lawbreaker).

I can see what Sancta is saying though. Domination can't not break the laws. So one would take domination and then within the same session probably take both lawbreaker powers.

The laws only apply to "people".  They don't apply to monsters.  Where that line is drawn may differ from one group to another but Domination can be used without breaking a law.

[ways and means]

Domination isn't magic it is a latent psychic ability so it doesn't fall under the laws of magic (in the case of Vampires), same with incite emotion etc. It isn't mind hacks that cause the warping of personality it is the use of magic to mind hack if you can mind hack without magic due to a psychic talent then you wouldn't need to worry about corrupting effects of black magic.

[TheMouse]

In general, you are allowed to do things without using magic that the Laws would forbid you doing with magic. For the most part, the Laws are against doing a certain set of things by means of magic. The big exception being, of course, Outsiders; since this isn't about that, we can discount it.

Psychic powers aren't magic. They're a supernatural power, but that power isn't magical in nature. Since the Laws apply to magic, and since psychic powers aren't magic, the Laws don't generally apply to psychic powers.

This is why the Laws aren't broken if you kill someone with a gun. Or if you stab someone with a unicorn horn, to use an example of using something supernatural that is none the less not an act of magic. Neither is casting a spell, so neither breaks the Law.

So I wouldn't have using a psychic power to control someone's mind give you the Lawbreaker hit. It's not magic, so the Laws needn't apply in a metaphysical or rules sense.

On the other hand, if a Warden sees you put the mind zorch on someone with your psychic powers, expect them to cut your head off. Maybe not 100% of the time, since they might conceivably be open minded enough to look into it and differentiate between magic and psychic brain-zorching. But easily 99% of the time, expect a head-chopping.

[Sanctaphrax]

Seriously, why?  That may be your vision but it doesn't appear to be Jim's and it's canonically not the RPG authors' vision.  To quote a highlighted statement in the book, "By taking such an action, you've altered your self-image and your beliefs - the very basis of you - to be the sort of person who breaks the Law."  The designers obviously thought that should twist both character beliefs (aspect) and powers (Lawbreaker).

I think that this is the vision of the RPG authors. They made Lawbreaker provide bonuses, and there's no indication that they intended those bonuses to be weaker than Refinement. In fact, the opposite is implied.

They included corruption, but they also made sure that you get what you pay for.

DFRPG is a very good game when it comes to making sure that people get their power's worth, generally. Better than any other game I know, and I know a reasonable number of games.

The laws only apply to "people".  They don't apply to monsters.  Where that line is drawn may differ from one group to another but Domination can be used without breaking a law.

Good point, can't believe I forgot that.

[sinker]

Domination isn't magic it is a latent psychic ability so it doesn't fall under the laws of magic (in the case of Vampires), same with incite emotion etc. It isn't mind hacks that cause the warping of personality it is the use of magic to mind hack if you can mind hack without magic due to a psychic talent then you wouldn't need to worry about corrupting effects of black magic.

Can you think of a situation where a mortal could use such power against other mortals and not be corrupted by said power though? I can't. Mankind is entirely too self serving by nature.

[ways and means]

Can you think of a situation where a mortal could use such power against other mortals and not be corrupted by said power though? I can't. Mankind is entirely too self serving by nature.

Lawbreaking has always been about magic, the wardens are all (or at least a good chunk of them) murders  but because they do it without magic they don't have the lawbreaker stunt. What that doesn't mean is that they are not corrupted by their actions I imagine Morgan's personality was shaped by his work (Morgan being an obsessive, paranoid person whose first reaction to a problem is to cut its head off). The Laws of Magic apply only to magic and thus the lawbreaker stunts must apply only to magic (with the bizarre exception of the outsider law). Corruption outside the rules of magic are represented by aspects in this game and if you have a player who routinely uses his powers malevolently he certainly should have an aspect relating to the fact. 

[sinker]

Agreed, Lawbreaking is about magic. But if you ascribe to the belief that refresh=free will, and would like to represent a character sliding from a hero with a choice to a (human) monster that blindly follows it's desires then removing refresh might be a good way to do that. Might as well give them something in return, since it kinda sucks otherwise, how about a bonus to continue doing the things that they are doing (since of course they are going to get better as they continue to do that)?

I'm not saying it's required or RAW or anything, just that an appropriate way to represent that slide is by giving lawbreaker powers (tailored to the behavior rather than the Laws).

[ways and means]

Well I won't get into an ethics debate about equating free-will and morality, but if you want to set up a Dark/Light Side Morality system in your game go ahead something similar to Lawbreaking (darkside powers) would work, though personally I prefer monochrome games rather than black and white ones and prefer the consequences of players actions to be in game rather than on their character sheets.

[UmbraLux]

Lawbreaking has always been about magic...

Sure...so what is magic?  Harry seems to think a werewolf simply uses a spell.  He seems to have similar attitudes towards many of the minor talents mentioned in the books. 

The RPG simply states "Magic is an expression of the person who brings it forth."  It goes on to state "Whether it’s faith or magic, all power comes from the basic nature of the mortal or monster who is using it. Evil brings forth evil, and good brings forth good. We are what we do, and we do what we are."

The books really don't seem to differentiate between types of power.  A 'psychic' who can see through sheet rock and ectomancer with little power are both simply minor talents.  Where both novels and RPG draw a line is between Nature and Choice - between being a monster and being 'mortal' to one degree or another. 

Of course we are free to insert additional lines wherever we want.  Powers may be designated as psychic, super-science, magic, luck, alien, or simply a sixth sense.  We can even create mechanical differences with advantages, disadvantages, and lawbreaking.  Can do all that and more.

But the books are about the choices we make, not the fuel used for a given power.

[Sanctaphrax]

You're going too far here, UmbraLux. The fact that the laws only apply to spellcasting is stated more than once.

But wasn't the whole premise of this thread the idea that someone was fluffing their Domination as spellcasting?

EDIT: Just reread, and apparently not. Huh.

[UmbraLux]

The fact that the laws only apply to spellcasting is stated more than once.

If you replace "spellcasting" with "magic", I agree.  My question is simple, what is magic?  Perhaps more correctly, what is magic in the Dresden Files setting?

[Sanctaphrax]

I used the word spell on purpose. Check out YS page 244 paragraph 8 sentence 3. Or YS page 232 paragraph 5. Or the effects of Lawbreaker, which only boost spellcasting rolls.