Need Help: True Shapeshifting

[devonapple]

Don't have the book handy so have to ask, where is that limitation from?  As far as I know you can gain any power you can thematically justify by your change.

YS 177:
"Function Follows Form. You may shapeshift your form to take on a variety of abilities, taking a full action to change them around. When making such a change, you may reallocate some or all of your form points (see above) to purchase new abilities, focusing on those available as Creature Features (page 162), certain Minor Abilities (page 169), Speed (page 178), Strength (page 183), and Toughness (page 184)."

I do find the reference to "certain Minor Abilities (page 169)" to be problematic. While I can theorize that "Minor Abilities" is intended as a catch-all for the weird traits we as players and GMs are likely to come up with in order to flesh out the creatures we invent for our games, that is simply my reading of it.

I feel that the intent, however, is clearly that Modular Abilities is supposed to reflect the ability to rewrite one's physical abilities, much like a shapeshifter would do.

That said, if a GM is willing to allow Glamours as an option for Modular Abilities (maybe justifying it as pheromones or something), I feel that falls under "your table, your rules" and not RAW.

[Ghsdkgb]

Function  Follows  Form.   You  may  shapeshift your  form  to  take  on  a  variety  of  abilities, taking  a  full  action  to  change  them  around. When making such a change, you may real-locate  some  or  all  of  your  form  points  (see above)  to  purchase  new  abilities,  focusing on  those  available  as  Creature  Features (page 162), certain Minor Abilities (page 169), Speed (page 178), Strength (page 183), and  Toughness (page 184).

EDIT: Well, crap, looks like he's already got it. Wonder why the forum didn't warn me something else had been posted, like it usually does?

[wyvern]

Some comments on True Shapeshifting:

Were I to actually use this in a tabletop game, I'd add a limitation: cannot shift to a form that hasn't been prepared in advance.  Dealing with the skill shuffle is really just too much otherwise; trying to keep track of which skills you have at what levels, when, would be just painful.

Alternatively, I'd go with modular powers *without* True Shapeshifting's variable skill shuffle.  Maybe make one skill set that has decent physical skills and can be used in all forms, from human to wombat to sofa.  Maybe use Beast Form and have just one set of high physical alternative skills, so you can be charming (human, housecat, etc.) or feral (eagle, shark, aluminum golem, etc.)  Especially for a fae, if you just want to *look* like a tree or a chair or whatever, I'd seriously consider using glamours instead; glamours + modular powers should cover most of the same bases as true shapeshifting + modular powers.

Also, if people are interested in seeing some examples, I have a (very) high refresh shapeshifter that I'm using in Sanctaphrax' game; you can look at the character sheets here.

[UmbraLux]

YS 177:
"Function Follows Form. You may shapeshift your form to take on a variety of abilities, taking a full action to change them around. When making such a change, you may reallocate some or all of your form points (see above) to purchase new abilities, focusing on those available as Creature Features (page 162), certain Minor Abilities (page 169), Speed (page 178), Strength (page 183), and Toughness (page 184)."

Perhaps I deal too much with policy and procedure documents but there's no limitation or proscription in that statement.  "Focusing on" doesn't mean "limited to".  They're just the most obviously applicable to most creatures we know or imagine.

Really don't think it requires a house rule to allow someone changing to a Sidhe to gain Glamour along with Toughness.  But as you said, your table...   

[devonapple]

I think it stretches the bounds of Modular Abilities to allow a transformation to a convincing Sidhe *with* all of the Sidhe powers.

Could one shapechange to a Wizard with Evocation and Thaumaturgy?

[UmbraLux]

I think it stretches the bounds of Modular Abilities to allow a transformation to a convincing Sidhe *with* all of the Sidhe powers.

Why?  It's "True Shapeshifting"...are there limits on the shape you can take?  (Beyond knowledge and imagination at least.)  Presumably a giant is as valid as a rhino and a phooka as valid as a phoenix.

Could one shapechange to a Wizard with Evocation and Thaumaturgy?

Is "Wizard" a race?  Or a matter of knowledge?  If you judge it the former, it may be possible.  Personally, I think it's the latter.  That said, changing into something like a phoenix may well get you abilities so close to fire evocation as to be indistinguishable. 

[Ghsdkgb]

Well, with the name being shapeshifting, I'd imagine it'd be limited to your physical form. You'd have to take a "spiritshifting" power or somesuch to grant yourself access to magic.

[devonapple]

I suspect we have a fundamentally conflicting idea of the limits of shape shifting and the scope of any modular powers, Umbralux. And I'm not sure that there is a definitive answer. It gets handled differently in different games, with different expectations of outcome. D&D handles it one way. Point-based systems like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds handle it another way. I can easily imagine taking the appearance and physical attack forms of a Giant, a Phoenix or a Pooka. But the Phoenix's fire abilities, or the Pooka's magical abilities, would be out of bounds. Even inventing one's own tentacular form with a bifurcated head born aloft on a trio of tyrannosaurus legs would only grant certain physical abilities: I wouldn't allow Incite Emotion (insanity) just because the shapeshifter saw an Outsider. Edit: But maybe in a more Outsider-themed game, the appearance *IS* the source of insanity, so it might be appropriate.

I feel the ability to create complex magical effects (Glamours, Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Sponsored Magic) are learned, taught, bestowed and/or innate properties which cannot be mimicked without that Steal Power/Mimic Power ability (which may be evidence that some things just can't be emulated - only stolen from their original possessor). With Fae, I feel that such magic is an innate part of what they are, and a Shapeshifter - however skilled - won't be able to replicate that.

Certain gross, unskilled or simple magical effects I might be able to justify as being replicable. But any shapeshifter that wants to do magic, I feel, needs to buy that magic. But I continue to interpret the line from Modular Abilities as proscriptive, and while I believe the loophole you identify was intended to give players and GMs the latitude to negotiate abilities, I don't feel it is loose enough to justify skilled magical ability.

But at the end of the day, I think of Modular Abilities as a Variable Power Pool (HERO system terminology) limited to physical effects (or simple magical creature abilities, if your table wants to go that way).

[UmbraLux]

Well, with the name being shapeshifting, I'd imagine it'd be limited to your physical form. You'd have to take a "spiritshifting" power or somesuch to grant yourself access to magic.

Err...we're talking about Modular Abilities granting powers based on shape.  True Shapeshifting's name has nothing to do with what Modular abilities grants.

I suspect we have a fundamentally conflicting idea of the limits of shape shifting and the scope of any modular powers, Umbralux. And I'm not sure that there is a definitive answer.

Perhaps.  I think you're correct about the lack of definitive answer. 

It gets handled differently in different games, with different expectations of outcome. D&D handles it one way. Point-based systems like HERO or Mutants & Masterminds handle it another way. I can easily imagine taking the appearance and physical attack forms of a Giant, a Phoenix or a Pooka. But the Phoenix's fire abilities, or the Pooka's magical abilities, would be out of bounds. Even inventing one's own tentacular form with a bifurcated head born aloft on a trio of tyrannosaurus legs would only grant certain physical abilities: I wouldn't allow Incite Emotion (insanity) just because the shapeshifter saw an Outsider. Edit: But maybe in a more Outsider-themed game, the appearance *IS* the source of insanity, so it might be appropriate.

I feel the ability to create complex magical effects (Glamours, Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Sponsored Magic) are learned, taught, bestowed and/or innate properties which cannot be mimicked without that Steal Power/Mimic Power ability (which may be evidence that some things just can't be emulated - only stolen from their original possessor). With Fae, I feel that such magic is an innate part of what they are, and a Shapeshifter - however skilled - won't be able to replicate that.

While mythology is often contradictory, neither phoenix or phooka are necessarily intelligent.  If they aren't, any abilities are logically innate rather than learned.

That said, I'm certainly not going to argue against limiting some powers to intelligent individuals capable of learning.  Any of the casting or casting-like abilities might fit.  It depends more on your interpretation of faerie legend than on the power itself - are creatures with animal intelligence capable of natural magics or innate illusions?  Either answer could make for a compelling and interesting world.

Certain gross, unskilled or simple magical effects I might be able to justify as being replicable. But any shapeshifter that wants to do magic, I feel, needs to buy that magic. But I continue to interpret the line from Modular Abilities as proscriptive, and while I believe the loophole you identify was intended to give players and GMs the latitude to negotiate abilities, I don't feel it is loose enough to justify skilled magical ability.

Let me preface my response by stating everyone is free to create any rules they wish, whether out of whole cloth or not.  I'm really not trying to change your mind on how to play...just on how you're applying unique word definitions to a public audience.  "Focus" means a concentration or central point - even center, heart, core, or nucleus.  All of those are part of a larger whole.  I honestly don't see how it can be interpreted as "this and only this".  That's simply not what the word means.  "Focus" simply doesn't mean "prohibit anything not mentioned". 

Again, this is only an issue to me because we're limited to communicating through words.  Unilaterally redefining words kills communication relying on common definitions.

But at the end of the day, I think of Modular Abilities as a Variable Power Pool (HERO system terminology) limited to physical effects (or simple magical creature abilities, if your table wants to go that way).

It's not a bad decision.  I can even make an argument for it by limiting some powers to those intelligent enough to learn them.  (Though that has it's own pitfalls in this case.) 

If some powers are not innate and must be learned, it makes sense they won't be available to shapeshifters with Modular Abilities.  It also means no unintelligent creature should have those powers...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. 

[Vargo Teras]

Consider that with Mimic Abilities, it costs 7 points of refresh to be able to acquire the entire wizard package.  With True Shapeshifting to justify applying Modular Abilities to acquire that package, it costs 13.  Six points of refresh seems like it should be sufficient to cover the differing levels of difficulty in applying one versus the other.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'd advise sticking to physical powers and stunts with Modular Abilities. Even with that restriction, it's a seriously powerful power.

If you don't stick to physical powers, then you should put some other restriction on the power. And definitely don't allow Thaumaturgy or Refinement or Sponsored Magic.

Given that

Consider that with Mimic Abilities, it costs 7 points of refresh to be able to acquire the entire wizard package.  With True Shapeshifting to justify applying Modular Abilities to acquire that package, it costs 13.  Six points of refresh seems like it should be sufficient to cover the differing levels of difficulty in applying one versus the other.

No.

First of all, you don't need True Shapeshifting to justify Modular Abilities.

Second of all, True Shapeshifting is well worth its cost. Having to buy True Shapeshifting is not the same as spending 4 extra refresh.

Thirdly, the wizard template really only costs 6 Refresh when purchased with Modular Abilities. Because you'll never use both Evocation and Thaumaturgy at the same time.

Fourthly, the difference in difficulty of use between Modular Abilities and Mimic Abilities is freakin' massive. Unbelievably large.

The balance of Modular Abilities depends on the fact that having powers x and y and z one at a time is less good than having them all at once. You have to keep that true for the power to be even remotely fair.

[GryMor]

Thirdly, the wizard template really only costs 6 Refresh when purchased with Modular Abilities. Because you'll never use both Evocation and Thaumaturgy at the same time.

To play Devil's advocate a tiny bit, stuffing your casting into modular abilities effectively forfeits (Item creation/atunement happens at milestones, loss happens when you swap out the powers) your base item slots every time you swap, so thats close to a two refresh deficit in utility over the real Wizard.

[Sanctaphrax]

Why would swapping out the power disable the items?

Wait! That's brilliant! Take Ritual (Crafting) and a bunch of Refinements with Modular Abilities, make an arsenal of Enchanted Items, then use them while in other forms!

Seriously, though, ruling that the item slots vanish somehow would make it saner. But not quite sane.

[Vargo Teras]

Why would swapping out the power disable the items?

One could surmise that changes in one's basic nature sufficient to grant/remove spellcasting ability are sufficient that enchanted/focus items would no longer work properly, in much the same way that they cannot be loaned to another magician; in essence, your newly assumed form is another entity entirely, as far as the magical resonances are concerned.

[Dravokian]

Ok this is taken straight from YS:177
When making such a change, you may reallocate
some or all of your form points (see
above) to purchase new abilities, focusing
on those available as Creature Features
(page 162), certain Minor Abilities (page 169),
Speed (page 178), Strength (page 183), and
Toughness (page 184).
I would stick to this as close as possible with modulating abilities. In my game I made it Law. You cant access any other power group and it keeps things sane.