Superpowers and combat!

[Silverblaze]

Thread created as a result of this post made by myself in the : "Balancing Evocation Accuracy" thread.


Supreme Strength. Whenever using your
Might to modify (page 214) another skill, it
always provides a +3 regardless of the actual
comparison of your Might score to the skill
in question." Your Story

Speed powers offer a similar boost to Athletics rolls.

Should the Might bonuses and Athletics bonuses be allowed to increase accuracy of attacks made with said attacks or modified by said skills?

I think it will create balance issues, especially with True Mortals.

[Becq]

I vote ... MAYBE!

First, you need to also consider a second bit of rules that interacts with the bit quoted above:

In combat, Might can help you with particular applications of Fists and Weapons: if physical force is a very significant element at play, Might will modify (page 214) the primary skill.

Note that this passage is listed under "Wrestling" which makes it easy to argue that it only applies to wrestling.  However, since wresling is largely an application of the grapple rules, and since grapple uses Might specifically (as opposed to Fists modified by Might), AND since the quoted bit of rules seems to be worded very generally, it could be argued that it is not meant to apply only to wrestling.  I don't know.

In any case, let's pretend that it was meant to be applied generally.  In that case, it could mean that if a weapon was large enough that having enough physical stength to lift it was a significant concern, then Might would modify Weapons.  Yes, that would mean it potentially makes the attack more accurate.

"What?  That makes NO sense!"  Ok, I kind of agree.

But look at it the other way around -- not that it improves accuracy, but that it makes the attack harder to avoid and more effective when it lands.  Does this make sense?  Well, yes: if someone swings a telephone pole at me, that's (a) harder to dodge out of the way of, and (b) will have more of an impact.

The key to making this work is to not adjust weapon rating based on weapon size.  That is, let's say a polearm is weapon:3.  A telephone polearm is also weapon:3 (not weapon:6 or whatever you would normally decide on), but requires Mythic Strength to wield.  And because it can only ever be wielded by folk with Mythic Strength, it will end up behaving as a weapon that increases Weapon skill by +3 (due to Supreme Strength) and has a rating of weapon:9 (due to Devestating Blows adding to the basic weapon:3).

Note that this is not a license to add +3 to Weapon skill whenever attacking.  When attacking with normal weapons, Might does not modify, so you'd "only" add the +6 stress for Devestating Blows.  If you want to apply the full force of your awesome strength, you can't use that sissy Claymore; you're going to need a MANLY weapon!

Or, at least, that's one way the rules can be read.  YMMV.

[UmbraLux]

Quoting from the other thread:

Well, the rules (YS135, qoted above) do indicate that Might modifies in cases like this, which means either complement or restrict depending on relative values. 

Outside of wrestling, I don't see anything about Might modifying combat.  It seems like you're extending that trapping to more than just Wrestling. 

Though in the particular example of using an oversized weapon, the only choices are "you have enough strength, so modify means a bonus" or "you don't have enough strength, so the object is too heavy to use as a weapon".

Might either complements all melee weapon use or restricts heavy/large weapon use.  I honestly can't see interpreting it as "no affect to normal weapons but complements large weapons".

In any case, let's pretend that it was meant to be applied generally.  In that case, it could mean that if a weapon was large enough that having enough physical stength to lift it was a significant concern, then Might would modify Weapons.  Yes, that would mean it potentially makes the attack more accurate.

"What?  That makes NO sense!"  Ok, I kind of agree.

But look at it the other way around -- not that it improves accuracy, but that it makes the attack harder to avoid and more effective when it lands.  Does this make sense?  Well, yes: if someone swings a telephone pole at me, that's (a) harder to dodge out of the way of, and (b) will have more of an impact.

Neither makes sense to me.  Saying something is "harder to avoid" is  just rewording "more accurate". 

The key to making this work is to not adjust weapon rating based on weapon size.  That is, let's say a polearm is weapon:3.  A telephone polearm is also weapon:3 (not weapon:6 or whatever you would normally decide on), but requires Mythic Strength to wield.  And because it can only ever be wielded by folk with Mythic Strength, it will end up behaving as a weapon that increases Weapon skill by +3 (due to Supreme Strength) and has a rating of weapon:9 (due to Devestating Blows adding to the basic weapon:3).

Note that this is not a license to add +3 to Weapon skill whenever attacking.  When attacking with normal weapons, Might does not modify, so you'd "only" add the +6 stress for Devestating Blows.  If you want to apply the full force of your awesome strength, you can't use that sissy Claymore; you're going to need a MANLY weapon!

Or, at least, that's one way the rules can be read.  YMMV.

Why wouldn't Might modify a normal weapon if it does a large one?  Swords aren't exactly fragile.  If it's well made, you're not going to break it by swinging it into flesh and bone...no matter how strong you are.

[Becq]

Saying something is "harder to avoid" is  just rewording "more accurate".

Not necessarily.  Which is more likely to strike the bullseye of a target: a javelin, or a suitcase?  Next -- assuming said suitcase is filled with explosives rigged with a contact trigger -- which attack is harder to avoid?  Which has more precision: a baseball, or a thrown bus?  And which is harder to get out of the way of?

If someone has a Broken Leg, that should make it more difficult for him to dodge, but instead the game system allows the aspect to be tagged for a bonus on the attack roll.  So apparently, having a target with a broken leg improves your accuracy?  No, it just provides the attacker with an advantage relative to the defender, and that's reflected in the game mechanics by a bonus to the attack roll.  Likewise, immense strength combined with an anime-grade weapon provides an advantage -- jumping back out of the sweep of a sword it one thing, but most folk can't jump back 30 feet to avoid a telephone pole being swung at them.

Why wouldn't Might modify a normal weapon if it does a large one?  Swords aren't exactly fragile.  If it's well made, you're not going to break it by swinging it into flesh and bone...no matter how strong you are.

It's not a question of fragility, it's a question of getting a ridiculously big weapon that is hard for the defender to get out of the way of.

Just taking a moment here to stress that I don't necessarily believe that Strength should add to attack rolls.  More than anything else, I'm just exploring the idea, since there are some vague indications in the rules that it sometimes can, in certain circumstances.

[UmbraLux]

It's not a question of fragility, it's a question of getting a ridiculously big weapon that is hard for the defender to get out of the way of.

My hobby is making me cringe at this.  Bigger isn't better when discussing a single target attack.  An area attack, sure.  But a big muscle powered weapon becomes easier to dodge, not harder.  It's not really a function of strength either, it's mass and Newton's Laws.  Start swinging that bus from a dead stop and I'll dodge every time.  Even if you're as powerful as the bus' motor. 

Perhaps superhuman strength combines with superhuman mass to overcome the issue in a world of magic.  I've certainly played and enjoyed Exalted with all its ridiculously over the top weaponry.     I simply find it difficult to transfer that to a world based on ours.  YMMV.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is relevant.

[GryMor]

Skills should be able to compliment attacks when, due to circumstance, the skill would naturally restrict the attack and when those circumstances are in line with the attack.

Semi specific examples:
  Athletics should restrict attacks made from precarious balance against a foe not in the same circumstance.
  Athletics should compliment leaping/diving/swinging attacks.
  Might should restrict attacks with something of normal scale that is merely heavy (a 10lb sword in the right short sword shape)
  Might should compliment attacks with something that is not just heavy, but really large (the difference between hitting the broadside of a barn and hitting you with the broadside of a barn)

I suppose another way of looking at it is these are situations where you could have instead made a deceleration but to speed things up you roll it into a single action via complimentary skills.

[UmbraLux]

Skills should be able to compliment attacks when, due to circumstance, the skill would naturally restrict the attack and when those circumstances are in line with the attack.

Err, you may want to reread YS214.  It either restricts or complements (or modifies), not two of three or all three.

  Might should restrict attacks with something of normal scale that is merely heavy (a 10lb sword in the right short sword shape)
  Might should compliment attacks with something that is not just heavy, but really large (the difference between hitting the broadside of a barn and hitting you with the broadside of a barn)

Why?  What you're saying doesn't make sense to me.  I'll paraphrase for clarity:  A weapon which is merely a little bit heavy can only subtract from the primary skill but, a weapon which is far too massive for most to use can only add to the primary skill.  That's what you're saying.  (See definitions of modify, complement, and restrict on YS214.)

I suppose another way of looking at it is these are situations where you could have instead made a deceleration but to speed things up you roll it into a single action via complimentary skills.

This just confuses me.  Are you basing restrict / complement on whether you are accelerating or decelerating a weapon?

[InFerrumVeritas]

I'd say that an oversized weapon would restrict, but not compliment or modify an attack roll.  It's not easier to hit with (it's really not, the best you'll get is breaking even if you're strong enough to swing it at normal speed).  However, it'd do more damage.

[Silverblaze]

I can see at least one more place Might could help in a combat situtation aside from wrestling.  If you lock blades with someone (which is rarer than it sounds) Might could be used to shove around the opposition or take them off balance.  Though that situation could be solved by grapple rules also.

Big weapons: we are assuming that Mythic strength is enough to wield the object in question.  I doubt there are many things you wouldn't be able to lift.  There is a massive difference between lifting, swinging wildly, and wielding a weapon with accuracy.  Each one requires more strength than the last, not to mention skill in combat and practice doing such things.

In game terms people shouldn't be able to swing around everything they can lift. 


How about using athletics as an attack when throwing things and getting bonuses from Speed Powers?

[Mr. Death]

How about using athletics as an attack when throwing things and getting bonuses from Speed Powers?

What I've generally done is used Athletics for maneuvers with super speedsters, either to DISORIENT an opponent, or BUILD UP MOMENTUM for a punch.

[InFerrumVeritas]

What I've generally done is used Athletics for maneuvers with super speedsters, either to DISORIENT an opponent, or BUILD UP MOMENTUM for a punch.

I created an additional power which for -1 refresh per level, allows them to apply their bonus to attacks.  So -1 for inhuman, -2 for supernatural, -3 for mythic.  Reasonably balanced, seeing as you're paying the cost of evocation for a +3 bonus (with a 6 refresh prereq).

[Silverblaze]

What I've generally done is used Athletics for maneuvers with super speedsters, either to DISORIENT an opponent, or BUILD UP MOMENTUM for a punch.

Makes sense to me.

I just notice some people are ok with Mythic strength adding +3 to attacks where might could come in handy.

If a stunt allowed athletics to be used as an attack for throwing a ball or shuriken or knife etc... Could the bonus to athletics modify the attack roll by 1-3?

I created an additional power which for -1 refresh per level, allows them to apply their bonus to attacks.  So -1 for inhuman, -2 for supernatural, -3 for mythic.  Reasonably balanced, seeing as you're paying the cost of evocation for a +3 bonus (with a 6 refresh prereq).

Interesting.

Does that seem to be balanced in play?

[GryMor]

I'd say that an oversized weapon would restrict, but not compliment or modify an attack roll.  It's not easier to hit with (it's really not, the best you'll get is breaking even if you're strong enough to swing it at normal speed).  However, it'd do more damage.

Maybe my experience is different, but the difficulty evading jabs with practice daggers or swipes with shinai was mostly strength agnostic. Give the strong guy a comically oversized (padded) maul and they were much harder to evade than they were with a shinai. The same maul in the hands of someone who ddn't work out so much was easy to evade, easier than the shinai.

Biology and mechanics wise it makes sense, at a certain acceleration you cap out what your muscles can do, even if you could be putting more force into it, if you are strong enough to maintain that acceleration with a much longer/wider weapon, then the volume of space the thing you want to hit needs to not be in becomes much larger.

[InFerrumVeritas]

In play, it did seem balanced...but to be fair:

I created it for a one off adventure we did around Halloween.  Rather than play a traditional "spooky game," we did a game in a totally different genre: Superheroes.  I statted up the Justice League and we played them (so there were 30 refresh characters).

That being said, I did run some numbers to test it and basically it seemed pretty powerful at Mythic, but balanced at the lower tiers (the bonus did not stack with any stunts, etc).  I'll see if I can dig up those session notes.