Balancing Evocation Accuracy

[Becq]

Weapons don't have to be ridiculously oversized to qualify, though.  You could just give yourself a "Sword of Eta Carinae", which grants ... oh, say +4 to Weapons (some of the skills of the mythic swordmaster who created the blade were imparted to it and therefore to its wielder: -4 refresh) and +10 stress on a hit (the magic its enchanted with causes the blade's edge to spacially coexist with the heart of the blue hypergiant star Eta Carinae: -5 refresh) on top of its baseline abilities.

So, for the same -7 refresh it costs to play a baseline wizard, a character could be flinging out attacks with 9 weapon skill and weapon +12 or so.  Oh, and without paying stress for each attack, too.  Oh, the wizard will pass this up with enough refresh, you say?  Well, it turns out that these are only the basic abilities imparted by the weapon; with use even greater capabilities can be unlocked (ie, more refresh spent on boosting the sword's capabilities).

Note: Yes, this is a ridiculous IoP.  No, it shouldn't be used.  My point is that cheese is not restricted to wizardry.

[GryMor]

Can't match the damage - not even with a ridiculous weapon.   

Of a Wizard, spending equal refresh? Certainly. Of an Evoker? After they hit cap on foci and diminishing returns on specialization? Eventually, and I'm still not killing myself doing it.

Additionally, I play Dresden Files as urban fantasy...not anime or Exalted.  Twelve foot swords don't really fit no matter what they're made of.  YMMV.

Ahh, and there we go, it's not so much a mechanical issue with the Wizard, it's more of an issue that the Wizard/Evoker themes safely justify a level of mechanical focus that is difficult to match inside the other themes you accept.

The pure Thaumaturgist, for making things dead, ends up being matched by the sniper, mechanically: build up a large number of tags before your target even knows they are a target and finish it with one pop, only need to really worry about very prepared targets and your own prep going bad.

Also of note, at a 5 slot foci we are in the full up staff category for size.

All that said, I like Exalted flavoring in my urban fantasy, Fate Stay Night was quite entertaining, it's right in line with the side of Mythic heroes from out of the past that the various Scions bring in.

[JayTee]

Speaking as a relative newbie here, but it seems to me that the main issue is what Refinement allows a Wizard (or magic users in general) to do. What if we allowed Non-magic types to take Refinements for non-magical/magical purposes? (representing highly specialized equipment or an enchanted item they hocked off a wizard friend) Or simply altered the kind of perks Refinement allowed?

[Sanctaphrax]

What exactly do you mean?

That sounds a bit like InFerrumVeritas' second proposal.

[JayTee]

From what I understand, Refinement allows a magic user to endlessly stack bonuses to their magical powers. Sometimes it's a large chunk of bonuses for specific things (Focus Items) and sometimes it's a broader but more restrained bonus (Specializations). It's basically Stunts for Magic that give you perks in specific situations. (Having a focus/using your favorite element)

My first suggestion would let non-magic users take a level of Refinement to either A: gain an enchanted item (likely nothing greater than 3 for power/frequency), or B: gain access to "advanced equipment" that act like Focus Items for mundane skills.

My second suggestion would be to simply reduce the level of power a Refinement gives you. Perhaps only allowing a +1 Shift, or only 1 Enchanted Item.

[GryMor]

Refinement isn't quite endlessly stacking bonuses. Specializations need to follow a standard pyramid, and are distinct between Evocation and Thaumaturgy. Foci cap out at your Lore + your Craft Foci Specialization. Due to the pyramid, specializations suffer from rather dramatic diminishing returns, where as it takes only one refresh to go from +1 to +2/+1, it takes another two for each +1/+1 up to +5/+4 (at 7 refresh in specialization) . Foci go up quite a bit faster but due to the offense/defense split, end up covering an even narrower space, then they too hit diminishing returns as they hit your lore and you need Thaumaturgy and Foci Specializations... which suffer from diminishing returns themselves.

Add this to it taking a bunch of refresh to have access at all and throw it against most other attack trappings that don't have explicit 'this is how you stack them to make them really powerful at the cost of lots of refresh guidelines' and wizards look nasty, which is thematically intended, but can be matched under default mechanics, which do have ways of boosting the other attack trappings squirreled away under other powers.

All that said, you could probably get away with a general stunt mechanic that, for a refresh gave you 2 points to put into boosting particular mundane trappings with the caveat that the bonuses for a thematic set of trappings need to follow their own pyramid.

[UmbraLux]

Weapons don't have to be ridiculously oversized to qualify, though.  You could just give yourself a "Sword of Eta Carinae", which grants ... oh, say +4 to Weapons (some of the skills of the mythic swordmaster who created the blade were imparted to it and therefore to its wielder: -4 refresh) and +10 stress on a hit (the magic its enchanted with causes the blade's edge to spacially coexist with the heart of the blue hypergiant star Eta Carinae: -5 refresh) on top of its baseline abilities.

True, and I've considered simply boosting weapon damage across the board.  Don't really like the escalation of power.  :/

Of a Wizard, spending equal refresh? Certainly. Of an Evoker? After they hit cap on foci and diminishing returns on specialization? Eventually, and I'm still not killing myself doing it.

It's possible by adding pure stress but Might doesn't add to attack as shown in that weapon. 

Ahh, and there we go, it's not so much a mechanical issue with the Wizard, it's more of an issue that the Wizard/Evoker themes safely justify a level of mechanical focus that is difficult to match inside the other themes you accept.

It's not that simple.  First, military history is a hobby of mine.  "Ten pound swords" make me either laugh or get sarcastic - depending on whether they appear in fiction or are attributed to reality.  Second, I'm trying to play "Dresden Files".   Sure I'll change some things, intentionally or not.  But 12' swords?  In the city?  Or even in a car?

@JayTee:  InFerrumVeritas' "Combat Specialization" stunt is pretty close to a direct translation of Refinement to mundane combat.  My guess is it will work...but it is an escalation.  Now everyone needs either Refinement or Combat Spec. 
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Refinements aren't really what makes evokers overpowered in my opinion.  Granted, it does contribute.  But the real issue is skills.  Casters are the only group who can add two skills to the effective damage equation.  And skills are (relatively) easy to raise.

A house rule such as GryMor seemed to have in the Daiklave might be better than duplicating refinements.  Add Might to melee and Alertness to ranged perhaps?  Don't know...but at least a second skill would put them back on equivalent footing.

My preference is to encourage casters use stress on things other than attacks.  Defensive magic, reactive blocks, counterspells, etc.  It's not a "nerf" but does use stress up on things other than 10 shift attacks.  It also helps that the players aren't trying to break the game.   

[InFerrumVeritas]

The more I think about it, the more I'd rather just not apply the control bonus to the attack roll. 

My biggest thing is, I'm in a situation where most of my group is attacking at great-fantastic.  My wizard's pulling off legendary+ attacks (due to focusing on a single element).  So I'm stuck with monsters that I know either will be impossible for almost everyone to hit, or that he'll always hit.

I've disarmed his foci, I've had enemies counterspell, etc.  I would rather the accuracy limits on wizards be the same as mortals.  Rather than escalate, I'll scale it back.  Wizards can throw around as much spell power as they want, but they'll only use their discipline (+ a single stunt, like everyone else) to target.

[DFJunkie]

I've found that removing the control bonus to attack rolls was all that was needed to balance Wizards.  Evocation's potential damage is balanced by the stress and refresh costs. 

[Orladdin]

I like that a large number of people here are against escalation.  Power bloat in games always bothers me.

(On the other hand, after a certain amount of refresh, people might be really interested in being able to excel something that's "technically" capped.  Cross that bridge when you come to it, though, imo.)

I've found that removing the control bonus to attack rolls was all that was needed to balance Wizards.  Evocation's potential damage is balanced by the stress and refresh costs.

This seems like it would be sufficient to me.

[devonapple]

I've found that removing the control bonus to attack rolls was all that was needed to balance Wizards.  Evocation's potential damage is balanced by the stress and refresh costs.

So if a gunfighter gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 attack, they get 5 shifts of effect.
If a spellcaster gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 spell, they get 3 shifts of effect.
The justification being that a spellcaster can actually throw around much higher weapon:x effects than any other mortal.

[Mr. Death]

So if a gunfighter gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 attack, they get 5 shifts of effect.
If a spellcaster gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 spell, they get 3 shifts of effect.
The justification being that a spellcaster can actually throw around much higher weapon:x effects than any other mortal.

I think what he means is, say you have a gunfighter and a wizard shooting at someone.

The gunfighter's Guns skill is Superb, and he ends up rolling a +1, meaning his attack roll is +6.

The wizard's Discipline is also Superb, but he's also got Specializations and a focus item, so his control roll is from 7 to start with. He also rolls a +1, and ends up with a +8 control roll.

With this houserule, the Wizard and Gunfighter's targeting rolls will be equal, rather than letting the wizard put everything he's got into control bonuses and consistently attacking with unerring accuracy.

[wyvern]

So if a gunfighter gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 attack, they get 5 shifts of effect.
If a spellcaster gets 2 extra shifts on a target with a weapon:3 spell, they get 3 shifts of effect.
The justification being that a spellcaster can actually throw around much higher weapon:x effects than any other mortal.

Not exactly.  Only if the spellcaster's extra shifts were from refinement or focus items.

If the gunfighter rolls a 5 on guns skill, with weapon: 3, against a target with a defense roll of 3 and no armor, that's 5 shifts of effect.
If a spellcaster rolls a 5 on discipline (sans specialization & focus item bonuses), with a weapon: 3 rote, against that same target - that's still 5 shifts of effect.
If the spellcaster in that second example has another +4 discipline from specialization & focus item control bonuses... she'd still get just 5 shifts of effect.  The extra control allows more power without taking backlash or fallout, but doesn't improve accuracy.

[Dravokian]

In the party I'm running there are 4 spellcasters. 3 Focused Practitioners and a Wizard. to Limit them from going way over the top I introduced them to a White Council Warden in the city we are playing in who's job is to deal with the new magic users that pop up. His name is Jeremia Johnson. He is a scary man who follows the white councils rules with a iron hand and steel sword. Every magic user in my party is terrified of him and with good reason. To keep my magic users from going way over the top i place the combat situations and many other things in the view of people who are in the dark and the white council is constantly listening to the mutterings of the general populace. Seeing as magic is not to be discovered this makes my magic users think twice about casting that gigantic fireball to nuke the uber ghoul with a human guise. They have to make sure to spend some of there shifts to make it seem like they didnt cast a spell. You can use in game situations to balance mage characters very easily.

[DFJunkie]

The extra control allows more power without taking backlash or fallout, but doesn't improve accuracy.

Bingo.  Works like a charm in my experience.  Not only does it balance combat effectiveness it also encourages the wizardy types to do things like maneuver, assess, and declare rather than relying on their Legendary+2 attack rolls.