Balancing Evocation Accuracy

[InFerrumVeritas]

So, the more I think about it, the more I think Evocation's accuracy is broken.  The fact that control bonuses apply to the attack rolls means that wizards are capable of being more accurate than the best snipers.  A mundane character can, if they're very lucky, achieve Epic attacks regularly (without fate points or aspects), but a practitioner can laugh at those numbers rather early on.

So, is this a problem in my head or just at my table, or is it one you've experienced as well?

I've got a couple of fixes I'm considering.

1:  Control bonuses only apply to control, not to targeting rolls.  You still use the same roll, but apply different bonuses. 

2: I like the idea of coming up with a "Combat Specialization" stunt.  It would give a bonus that had to follow a pyramid.  There would be four types of bonuses.  Accuracy (applies to attack rolls), Defense (applies to defense rolls and some blocks), Versatility (applies to maneuvers and some blocks), and Damage (applies to Weapon Rating).  Then, it'd be broken down into skills applied to instead of elements: Weapons, Fists, and Guns/Athletics (since you don't defend with Guns).

Combat Specialization [-1]
Description: You are especially skilled in combat.
Effect: Gain two specialization bonuses.  For each bonus, select one of the following skills (Weapons, Fists, Guns, Athletics), and one of the following, Accuracy (applies to attack rolls), Defense (applies to defense rolls and some blocks), Versatility (applies to maneuvers and some blocks), and Damage (applies to Weapon Rating).  You may take this multiple times, but the bonuses must follow a pyramid, like skills.  Your maximum bonus for a particular skill is limited by your skill rank in that skill.

What do you think of any of this?

[UmbraLux]

So, is this a problem in my head or just at my table, or is it one you've experienced as well?

I agree, that's one issue.  It's not the biggest in my opinion. 

Wizards simply have too many ways of increasing effectiveness.

• Targeting (and Control) increases with Discipline.
• Weapon power (or other spell effect) increases with Conviction.
• Both power and targeting may be increased through Refinement (Specialties and Foci) which are limited by Lore and, in the case of Specialties, a pyramid.

Targeting is really the only one with a direct melee or ranged equivalent.  Foci are roughly equivalent to using a weapon but tend to reach numbers no hand held weapon will (though costing refresh instead of resources is a small mitigation).  Specialties may be roughly equitable with Strength powers for melee (though ranged weapons don't have an equivalent).  But Conviction has no ranged or melee equivalent. 

With all of the rough equivalents the magic version is better.  In addition, the mage adds Conviction to his effect's power - something without an equivalent.  In return, the mage gets a limited number of uses based on mental stress and consequences.  Mental stress is really the only limiting factor which provides some balance. 

I've got a couple of fixes I'm considering.

1:  Control bonuses only apply to control, not to targeting rolls.  You still use the same roll, but apply different bonuses. 

My worry with this is time...every die roll you add slows the game down.  (As a side note, I'd really like to figure out a way to get rid of opposed rolls in fate for exactly this reason.)

Beyond the speed issue, you'll have to figure out how to apply bonuses.  Aspect use is probably easy, just pick the roll you want to bump up.  Specialties and foci are more questionable.  Have you planned how they'll apply?

2: I like the idea of coming up with a "Combat Specialization" stunt.  It would give a bonus that had to follow a pyramid.  There would be four types of bonuses.  Accuracy (applies to attack rolls), Defense (applies to defense rolls and some blocks), Versatility (applies to maneuvers and some blocks), and Damage (applies to Weapon Rating).  Then, it'd be broken down into skills applied to instead of elements: Weapons, Fists, and Guns/Athletics (since you don't defend with Guns).

Combat Specialization [-1]
Description: You are especially skilled in combat.
Effect: Gain two specialization bonuses.  For each bonus, select one of the following skills (Weapons, Fists, Guns, Athletics), and one of the following, Accuracy (applies to attack rolls), Defense (applies to defense rolls and some blocks), Versatility (applies to maneuvers and some blocks), and Damage (applies to Weapon Rating).  You may take this multiple times, but the bonuses must follow a pyramid, like skills.  Your maximum bonus for a particular skill is limited by your skill rank in that skill.

What do you think of any of this?

The stunt sounds a bit complex.  I'd suggest dropping it to offense and defense as foci are categorized.  I'd also be tempted to use it within a skill rather than across several.  I.E. Revolvers, Semi-auto Pistols, Rifles, and Shotguns rather than Weapons, Fists, & Guns.  That's mostly for flavor though...it would allow more mechanical differentiation between weapons. 

It does escalate damage capabilities - which makes me a bit wary.  But it would be worth a test drive. 

[ways and means]

If it is really a problem allowing powers like Sacred Guardian (add mental stress to attack) for weapon character it gets rid of the difference in accuracy but doesn't weaken magic power. 

[InFerrumVeritas]

Combat Specialization v2 [-1]
Skills Affected: Athletics, Fists, Guns, Weapons
Effect: You get two specializations.  For each, choose one of the affected skills and a bonus to either offense or defense when using that skill.  The bonus must follow a pyramid, like skills do.  You may take this stunt more than once.

Example: +1 to Offensive Weapons, +1 Defensive Athletics, +2 to Offensive Guns would cost 2 refresh.

@ways and means: I'm looking for something for pure mortals to take too.

[UmbraLux]

I like that better, not as complicated.  One more item to add came to mind - what are the limits?  (A Lore equivalent for limiting the max bonus.)  Alertness perhaps?  Lore is also the magical perception skill, so that creates some symmetry.  Athletics or Endurance also work but give more of a synergistic bonus.  Scholarship or Survival might work...but would be harder to justify.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I like that better, not as complicated.  One more item to add came to mind - what are the limits?  (A Lore equivalent for limiting the max bonus.)  Alertness perhaps?  Lore is also the magical perception skill, so that creates some symmetry.  Athletics or Endurance also work but give more of a synergistic bonus.  Scholarship or Survival might work...but would be harder to justify.

Hmm, good question.  I like the idea of limiting it to Alertness.

[Becq]

1:  Control bonuses only apply to control, not to targeting rolls.  You still use the same roll, but apply different bonuses. 

This strikes me as reasonable, though I'd make it slightly more flexible by allowing the player to divide their control bonuses among the two "rolls".  So if you have +2 fire control, and you roll a 5 on your discipline roll to cast a fire spell, you could treat that as 7 control and 5 targeting, or 5 control and 7 targeting, or 6 both (depending on how much power you needed to control).  This would give you the option of casting smaller attacks with greater accuracy.

Example: +1 to Offensive Weapons, +1 Defensive Athletics, +2 to Offensive Guns would cost 2 refresh.

So ... this would let you get a +2 to pretty much most of the Guns skill for -1 refresh (assuming, of course, that you had already bought a refresh worth of this stunt applied to other categories)?  Compare this to, say, "Pin Them Down" (YS153) -- or more generally, to the stunt creation guidelines on YS148 -- and I think my objection becomes clear.  I understand that you are trying to attain parity between the bonuses a spellcaster can get and those a mundane can get, but I think that your first option does better.

I can also see the argument "but a spellcaster can get two +1s for a refresh" -- and that's not an unfair argument.  Then again, mundane attacks do not require -7 refresh worth of prerequisites before having access to more than a single refinement, nor do mundane attacks require a stress box per attack.

[UmbraLux]

@InFerrumVeritas:  Once you've used it in play, I'd really like to hear how it worked out. 

Becq does have a good point.  If it ends up pushing the balance of power too far the other way, you might try reigning it in by making the bonus cost something to use.  Stress or fate points are the most obvious candidates.  Applying an aspect for you to tag / compel is another.  ("Yes, I'm willing to Attack Without Hesitation to get the bonus this scene.")

Don't know if such limitations will be needed, but it's worth having an idea or two planned.

[Silverblaze]

I'd like to preface my opinion with the following:

I DO think Wizards are unblanced compared to the rest of the character options.  I also think magic users over all are unbalanced compared to those who do not cast spells.  In fact the way the system currently works any character with magic is going to be more versatile and in some (perhaps most) cases more effective than those without.

I found the same issue with both Star  Wars roleplaying systems.  Adding the ability to use the Force to any character was simply better than not having Force Powers.  Period.  Yes Jedi were more effective than a random Force user, but the situation is similar.

Jedi = Wizards
Other Force users = other magic users.

Any character you can justify Force powers (SWRPG) or spells (DFRPG) for will simply be better with them than without.

Preface over------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the work required to fix the issues in both games require so much in the way of house rules; you might as well be starting from scratchon developement or playing another game altogether.

I simply accept the fact that Star Wars is skewed towards the Force.  Dresden Files RPG is skewed towards the protagonist of the novels...a spell caster. (Wizard) I encourage fellow players to enjoy the other playable options from a role playing experience.  If a player only wants efficiency... well the path is clear.

Enough naysaying from me though.  I do think the proposal for Combat Specialization may help.  Carry on. 

[InFerrumVeritas]

Well, I'm looking to make it so that the maximum a character can get on an attack is roughly equal.  I think it's ridiculous that Wizards can be more accurate than even the best trained sniper/swordsman/etc.  I'm okay with magic being more powerful (Weapon Rating) and versatile, but not more accurate.

So, what I'd like to do is to make it so that the characters have the same chances.  I know this isn't balanced against other stunts, but I think those are too weak.  I'm looking to have restrictions (the pyramid).  A wizard can get pretty massive accuracy bonuses with JUST evocation (theoretically +5 right off the bat if they pin themselves down to a single route and have a high enough lore).  I'm looking to make that a bit more fair for other characters.

I'll have to play it and see.  I'll post the results.

[Sanctaphrax]

You seriously have suspension of disbelief problems with the accuracy of magic?

...Given that magic is totally impossible and imaginary, calling its mechanics unrealistic seems weird.

But that's beside the point. Onto the topic:

For the purpose of this thread, let's assume that magic really is clearly stronger than everything else.

I really don't like your proposed solution. It makes stunts totally obsolete, which sucks flavour out of characters. You could achieve the same effect just by making stunts stack and by letting people pick really weak restrictions.

But honestly, I think that solving overpowered magic by boosting combat skills is a bad idea. It would be better to reduce the power of spellcasting, which you can do in at least a dozen easy ways without damaging the game. Suggestions, off the top of my head:

-Your first suggestion.
-Just charge more Refresh.
-Increase the tax on zone attacks.
-Remove the free specializations/focus slots from spellcasting powers.
-Make elements a harsh restriction rather than a mild one.
-Do not allow focus slots from one power to be spent on another.
-Eliminate foci from the game.
-Make foci size limits a bigger deal.
-Increase the stress cost.
-Eliminate rotes.
-Allow only one focus per spell.
-Apply the cap of +Lore to the whole spell, not to individual elements.
-etc.

[admiralducksauce]

-Remove the free specializations/focus slots from spellcasting powers.

This alone has gone a long way to making spellcasting much more palatable in the games I run.

[GryMor]

It seems like you can match the accuracy and damage of a wizard with mythic strength and a really big weapon for less refresh and no 'each attack I make costs me stun' issue.

Orichalcum Grand Daiklaive
12ft and a half ton of gold dense, diamond hard and mono-filament sharp supernatural metal enchanted such that the wielder is more the strong enough to put it through your tank with a casual swing.
Is what it is: WR 4 (battlefield weapon by any reckoning), doubles as an invulnerable tower shield
+2 Discount
-6 Mythic Strength

So, you get the base WR of 4, +3 for mythic strength and +3 to hit from might modifying weapons (you are swinging around this huge thing that takes might just to lift), and it doesn't eat stress to use. For the same refresh (ignoring the +2 for the moment) the Wizard isn't a wizard yet and the Evoker while ahead on targeting (+7 hit, 5+2 wr), has capped out on foci, has hit diminishing returns on specialization, eats stress for each attack and needs two extra skills.

Plus, an IOP doesn't help the Evoker much so the Daiklaive user has two extra fate points to help counteract the evokers +4 to hit... and can invest the other two skills in going first and not being heard approaching.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure that the Strength powers directly help your attack rolls like that. It doesn't make sense that it's going to be easier to hit with something that needs the Strength just to lift than a smaller, lighter weapon. You're already getting the benefit from the power with the +6 to stress.

And having something big enough to serve as Weapon:4 and a tower shield isn't exactly convenient. If he runs into the wizard in any environment where he's not going to be able to carry around a ton of metal (read: pretty much anywhere public), the wizard's going to win.

[UmbraLux]

It seems like you can match the accuracy and damage of a wizard with mythic strength and a really big weapon for less refresh and no 'each attack I make costs me stun' issue.

Can't match the damage - not even with a ridiculous weapon.   

Additionally, I play Dresden Files as urban fantasy...not anime or Exalted.  Twelve foot swords don't really fit no matter what they're made of.  YMMV.