So I'm probably missing something

[Shadowman17]

With the blocks, it's not about accuracy. Sorry, that was poorly explained. He wants to weaken blocks because he feels that a standard block has the potential to be too powerful, preventing anything other than magic from getting though.

[UmbraLux]

I don't think that wizards are the strongest character type. Mandatory The Sight and no rebate powers really cuts down on their sheer brute force level. But they're definitely up there.

Meh.  This is a debate for another thread.  Suffice it to say that magic is the only way to increase both targeting and weapon power by skills...and skills are easier to increase than most other character attributes.  I'll leave any deeper an analysis for a different thread. 

[Mr. Death]

Put it this way, at a Submerged level game, the average non-monster, non-wizard character will probably be rolling attack with their apex skill at 5, with, at best, a Weapon:3 weapon, more often Weapon:2, and their weapons probably won't be getting much stronger barring Refresh-costly powers--and even then, they can't do much to raise their accuracy. Plus, they have to have the weapons with them.

A wizard, on the other hand, can very easily be regularly casting Weapon:7 evocations, rolling from 7, in their preferred element, barehanded if they put their Refinements toward specializations instead of focus items.

So given a Good dodge roll, that non-wizard's going to be hitting for around 5 shifts of damage, while the wizard's going to be hitting for 11. The wizard will only be getting stronger and more accurate, while for the most part unless you're a plot device, your attack skill will top out at 5, maybe 6 given a stunt.

[Blackblade]

If the character is attacking with an apex skill of 5, then they would most likely be a combat focused character.  As such, they would probably have a couple of stunts to help them out with their damage-dealing, generally giving a +1 to attack and +2 to stress when using a specific type of weapon.  Also, there would be fate points to consider. 

[Aminar]

In addition those attack cause stress.  Something physical characters don't t take.  I can't.tell you how many fights my parties mates have run dry.in before the fight was over.

[Vargo Teras]

Put it this way, at a Submerged level game, the average non-monster, non-wizard character

The problem with this comparison is that wizards are more comparable to inhuman critters than to mere mortals, mechanically speaking.  Compare a Submerged Scion or Emissary with a combat focus, and it may come out rather more even.  A character with Supernatural Strength and Speed, with Superb Athletics and Weaponry, can easily manage Weapon:6 attacks and standing +7 defenses, without the stress cost of spells.  If actually enforcing the initiative rules, such a character could easily inflict serious consequences on a wizard before the first spell can be cast.

[fantazero]

Let them cast whatever they want, the secret is that magic doesn't solve everything.
There is ALWAYS something bigger.
Start getting them on Mental Stress by throwing out Psychic attacks, or make it so that they cant use their magic to stop a threat without killing someone or causing their cover to be blown.

What do you roll to protect yourself from Anthrax? Anyone?

[Aminar]

A thaumaturgy ritual to add enough to endurance to survive Anthrax.

[Sanctaphrax]

@UmbraLux: Well, magic does eventually outstrip other methods of inflicting damage. The investment cap on Refinement is very high. But I'm not sure that wizards are the most powerful magical characters. And at typical Refresh levels, I think that magic is not clearly superior to other approaches.

@Mr. Death: That's more or less the point I was making. See, you're comparing a semi-optimized wizard to a non-optimized mortal. This is easy to do, since almost all wizards are optimized to some degree. After all, they essentially all have Item Of Power built in.

A fairer mortal comparison to the average wizard is a mortal with Superb Guns, a weapon 4 assault rifle, and stunts boosting accuracy and damage with it. His accuracy is 6 and so is his weapon rating. He spends no stress on his attacks, and he's invested a whole lot less of his character into shooting than the wizard has into Evoking.

PS: 7 shifts barehanded is actually impossible for a Submerged wizard who isn't using rebates/sponsors.

[sinker]

For the wizard's attacks I would suggest broadening your field of combat and upping the enemy numbers. If you have a bunch of enemies spread out over ten or twelve zones then the wizards have to be strategic with their four mental stress slots, and the other characters will get a chance to shine.

As for blocks, if you can't get through a 10 shift block, then you aren't maneuvering enough. Consider one wizard VS five mortals. Wizard throws a 10 shift block, which he intends to extend next turn. First four mortals do not take directly aggressive actions, but instead place aspects of "Stressed shield" on the wizard or "Coordinated attack" on each other. None of these run directly against the block, so the block can't prevent them. The last one makes an attack and all he has to do is get a fair result to break the block, as he gets 8 shifts from tagging his friend's aspects.

[Sanctaphrax]

Waitaminute, I forgot something in my last post. A wizard could pull off 7 shifts barehanded with Lawbreaker or some noncanon sponsored magic.

[UmbraLux]

What do you roll to protect yourself from Anthrax? Anyone?

A ward / block to prevent infection.  Healing to get over it sooner (reiki or other).  Biomancy to change it to something harmless...or at least less harmful.  Biomancy to introduce antibodies to fight it (similar to the military's vaccine).

@UmbraLux: Well, magic does eventually outstrip other methods of inflicting damage. The investment cap on Refinement is very high. But I'm not sure that wizards are the most powerful magical characters. And at typical Refresh levels, I think that magic is not clearly superior to other approaches.

Not sure about that...pretty sure a beginning evocator can have +1 specialty, +2 focus, +Conviction, + Discipline.  (Which only takes Conviction of 4 to hit 7 shifts of power...before adding any targeting successes.)  That's going to beat Guns +firearm...even if you carried around a Weapon:4 machine gun.  It will likely match or beat Weapons +two-hand weapon (3) + Superhuman Strength (4)...and, as you noted, magic has far more room for expansion.  Not to mention being the single most flexible power in the book. 

Really think we're straying from the subject though.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Waitaminute, I forgot something in my last post. A wizard could pull off 7 shifts barehanded with Lawbreaker or some noncanon sponsored magic.

You could have +7 Control.  That makes Weapon 7 spells quite possible.
Superb Discipline, Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Refinement x2, Sight
Evo gives you +1 in secondary element
Refinement gives you +2 in primary element

7 shifts just means you're taking more stress.

[Sanctaphrax]

You can either have 7 control or 7 power. Not both without foci or Lawbreakers or homebrew content.

Though if someone made some homebrew content that made it possible, I might allow it.

And UmbraLux? I have counterpoints, but like you say we're ranging off topic.

[Shadowman17]

@fantazero, about mental attacks: can they be performed as evocation? The mental conflict section specifically mentions Thaumaturgy, however in the evocation section under elements, it's mentioned that the Spirit element covers mental magic.