Author Topic: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?  (Read 50481 times)

Offline OZ

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4129
  • Great and Terrible
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 01:28:45 AM »
I think it's a matter of finding good, original books rather than the genre or sub-genre they fall into. If the next great series is steam punk (for instance) then there will probably be a flood of writers writing steam punk. A few will probably write good stories. A few more will probably create well written stories that while not particularly original have niche appeal and sell well. Some will be trying to ride the wave but many will just be readers that write what they enjoy reading. I don't think it is so much the genre as it is the successful writers that create the wave. Whether it's Robert E Howard or HP Lovecraft, Laurell K Hamilton or J Rowling, good stories influence good (and bad) writers and cause similar stories to be written.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 02:11:46 PM by OZ »
How do you know you have a good book?  It's 3am and you think "Just one more chapter!"

Offline Snowleopard

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 27961
  • Small but sneaky.
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 04:10:11 AM »
In Hollywood the line is: Nobody wants to be first, everybody wants to be second.
No one wants to take a risk they want to ride the tails of something that's already successful.
Witness all the remake movies or sequels.   ::) ::)

Offline Nickeris86

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 05:43:16 AM »
For me most Urban Fantasy novels are not very well written, there are exceptions of course but the majority that I have done are all basically the exact same story told over and over with different characters.

In the darkest hour i shall be there.

Offline Starbeam

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5722
  • Twitter: @stellamortis
    • View Profile
    • Stella Mortis
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 03:59:59 PM »
But it's certainly something to think about for those of us who are currently hoping to publish a book in this genre. What do you all think?  :o
Doesn't matter to me. I'm writing what I want, not to trends.
"You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you." Ray Bradbury

Offline Enjorous

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 12664
  • Prince of the Gutter since 2010
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 05:06:14 PM »
To me one of the points that I don't like about a lot of UF is the focus on the main character always being a PI. There are a few exceptions (Dresden being a main one), but they seem often times to be too formulaic. Now I think that UF is far from dead, I think it just needs a little freshening up, very similar to what people like Rothfuss, Lynch, and Sanderson are doing with epic fantasy. There's a lot of room, imo, for it to grow is people were willing to take it there.
Kentucky Fried Shuriken - Finger Lickin' Death.
Quote from: horsehearted
Nah, women are just batshit crazy ALL the time!  :D
87.1% Dresden Pure rank: Nicodemus

Offline More.Than.A.Mechanic

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • "I'm like batman minus that bruce wayne part"
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 08:18:37 PM »
I do feel the market is now saturated with Urban Fantasy...

Offline Spot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8210
  • Lazer eyes!
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2012, 12:00:20 AM »
IMO, a lot of average to bad writers have jumped on the UF bandwagon (obviously because it is so wildly popular). This influx of writers and new "bad" books leads to disillusionment for those of us who crave good writing. Take for example some of the books out there that started off as UF (and rather good examples of the genre too) and that have now become an excuse for sleazy OMG-shag-everything-that-moves type of books. I am not going to name any names here, because that would be slamming a particular author/series, but we all know the type. Case in point: look at any UF section in a bookstore and how many people choose to hang out there and you'll have your answer. :)

I don't think people are growing tired of the genre, they are just growing tired of having the same ideas repeated in a similar manner.
Old gods. New gods. Aren't they all the same?

Offline Haru

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Mentally unstable like a fox.
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 01:33:07 AM »
Case in point: look at any UF section in a bookstore and how many people choose to hang out there and you'll have your answer. :)

What you call the UF section is labelled "Vampires" in a lot of bookstores in my area. Gives me the shivers every time I see it. And it is three shelves while original Fantasy is lumped together with Scifi in one. It's madness I tell you. And I agree, that is probably playing a big role in the topic at hand.

“Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Offline synthesis

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2012, 03:00:01 AM »
I think one of the detriments to urban fantasy has been the whole "pop culture" phenomenon.  All of a sudden, it's the "it" thing, which means, like everything else in pop culture, the market is flooded with a few wonderful authors/books/movies/shows and also a whole lot of crap. 

I don't see the urban fantasy craze dying down all that soon because there are a lot of basic desires it touches on like:
1) immortality--in a society where youth and beauty are celebrated and death feared, urban fantasy gives society a lot of the things they really dream about.
2) magic--not in the sense of "hey, I can do a spell," but in the sense of "hey, there is so much about this world/this universe/this galaxy that we just don't know.  I think urban fantasy appeals to our sense of wonder and awe about just how much we don't know and haven't discovered.  It brings back the idea of possibility in the same way that science does (there's probably a bit of irony there considering the oppositions set up in most fantasy/urban fantasy :P)

Why might urban fantasy be dying?  I'd guess it's the same reason any other book/genre dies.  And that all boils down to writing basics like characters/characterization, setting/world, plot, etc.  --If the reader has nothing to relate to. . .

But then, that's just my opinion, and I am never (okay usually always, but I like my own little fantasy) wrong :D

Offline The Deposed King

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2349
  • Persuasion is the key to success.
    • View Profile
    • Luke Sky Wachter Blog
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2012, 03:00:50 AM »
...really?  :-\

What I find weird about this particular stereotype is that it's not even true, historically. Maybe it's a matter of people getting two different concepts (nurturing and healing) mixed up with traditional gender roles. Are women usually mothers? Well, yeah, with the varying degrees of nurturing that tends to involve. But have women, in the past and in the present, usually been healers? No.

Except, apparently, when completely made up magic systems become involved. Then suddenly women are all about the healing.  ::)

Would your baloney-a-meter have kicked over if women turned out to be the best/most powerful and most commone fighter varients?

I agree I can't find why most women would be healers in the book anywhere.

The Deposed King


Proverbs 22:7, "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender"

The Deposed King (a member of baen's bar)

Offline synthesis

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 03:10:39 AM »
Would your baloney-a-meter have kicked over if women turned out to be the best/most powerful and most commone fighter varients?

I agree I can't find why most women would be healers in the book anywhere.

The Deposed King

Judith Butler--social construction of gender :P  Plus all the stuff on archetypes.  Society does not willingly abandon archetypes and women are the mothers (and all that the moniker entails). 

I was assuming The Deposed King was throwing in some sarcasm there, so if I'm wrong, I'll . . . um ... go back to healing :D

Offline The Deposed King

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2349
  • Persuasion is the key to success.
    • View Profile
    • Luke Sky Wachter Blog
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 03:17:54 AM »
Judith Butler--social construction of gender :P  Plus all the stuff on archetypes.  Society does not willingly abandon archetypes and women are the mothers (and all that the moniker entails). 

I was assuming The Deposed King was throwing in some sarcasm there, so if I'm wrong, I'll . . . um ... go back to healing :D

Maybe just a little  8) :o

But all in good fun.  I essentially agree with you.   Why would women be healers?  To the exclusion of men I mean.  I just didn't see the internal logic in the books.

That said if unconscious superstitious belief from 80% of the race that women are nurtuerer/healers doesn't have some minor modest effects on how magic manifests in the real (fantasy constructed) world of the book.  Then how does magic work? I would tend to think that massive belief from the masses would have to have some impact on a genuine magic system.

So I kind of vassilate back and forth.

Its like Patty Briggs were-wolves.  You look at actual wolves and then how the were-wolves actually act when the 'wolf' is strong in them and there are some discrepencies.

Not sure what my point is, if I even have a point.  Perhaps requires more self examination than I am capable of right at the moment :)

have a good one!


The Deposed King


Proverbs 22:7, "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender"

The Deposed King (a member of baen's bar)

Offline synthesis

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 04:10:09 AM »
I think I get where you're headed with the Briggs--it's the whole humanity side.  What makes us human and what makes us "other," and, along those lines, what makes the supernatural still human, which gets back to certain assumptions.  Her wolves still strive to retain humanity; those that don't are the ones that need to be destroyed.

And, swinging that back around, what defines humanity?  It often goes back to certain, basic binaries like man/woman, good/evil, black/white. . . The inescapability of certain roles. 

I think it's interesting though, that if you look at the way those roles a navigated when an author wants to turn them upside down, it's a very delicate process--no one wants to create the "effeminate man" or the "*itch woman."  Striking a balance that a general audience will accept while overturning certain stereotypes becomes a very difficult thing.

cenwolfgirl

  • Guest
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 10:14:30 AM »
dose this mean that thoughs of use who writte things that most of the time fall in to urban fanticy should stop and try somthing diffrent???
as that would be a pain for me
i don't realy know about sawd (theres a r some where in that word i just don't know where) stuff its not what i know so is hared to writte but moden day or close to it is easia as a setting
witch isproberly why people use it

Offline The Deposed King

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2349
  • Persuasion is the key to success.
    • View Profile
    • Luke Sky Wachter Blog
Re: Are Readers Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 02:13:18 AM »
I think I get where you're headed with the Briggs--it's the whole humanity side.  What makes us human and what makes us "other," and, along those lines, what makes the supernatural still human, which gets back to certain assumptions.  Her wolves still strive to retain humanity; those that don't are the ones that need to be destroyed.

And, swinging that back around, what defines humanity?  It often goes back to certain, basic binaries like man/woman, good/evil, black/white. . . The inescapability of certain roles. 

I think it's interesting though, that if you look at the way those roles a navigated when an author wants to turn them upside down, it's a very delicate process--no one wants to create the "effeminate man" or the "*itch woman."  Striking a balance that a general audience will accept while overturning certain stereotypes becomes a very difficult thing.


Well her wolves aren't just wolf spirits co-habiting human bodies.  Samuel's wolf wanted to maintain his 'personality'? in the second to the last book but was slowly turning into a massive raging bundle of death.  On the other hand the were-wolf half was definitely intriguing to the Indian Wolf/God.  Yet on a third, actual wolves rarely turn into rabid bundles of kill kill kill.  So like I said its hard to pigeon-hole how the were's would act from a straight observation of man/wolf.  The magic portion (which has to be the explaination) throw's everything off.

As far as what defines humanity.  I'm with you on the first one.  The second two are constructs, are they integral constructs or optional worldview kind of go into philosophy.  The closest thing I've seen to an instinct in humanity, is the desire to create language for communication.  But as the wolf boy of France showed back in the 1800's, use it or the ability to develop it is lost.  However we're such socialized creatures that certain bedrock cultural norms we absorb during our development define not only us.  But everyone around us.  Its like the Judge who once commented that is someone didn't like swearing to tell the truth so help me god, they should just swear the alternate so help me under the law or whatever the exact wording is.  Yet when he was questioned if he wouldn't have a bias against someone who asked to be sworn in under the alternate, he took a moment and admitted he he probably would.  Which actually was mildly surprising to the judge once he realized it.

Then there's the test with young school children, and it shows a bias for their own race type.  It can be mostly overcome with early socialization but the tendancy is present before they've been socialized into it.

Regardless I even if everything was about proper socialization, I maintain there is no such thing and no way to acheive it even if there was.  So this whole train of thought of mine is really getting away from Growing Tired of New Urban Fantasy and seriously in danger of losing any point whatsoever.



As for effeminite men and the converse in women.  That is a pit fall everyone needs to be wary of.  We tend to write what we know.  So men, being intimately familiar with men, do better there, while with women its the same thing, having a natural inside look at the female perspective gives the advantage there.  With some male authors they make the women unrealistic carictures, or really just side line, dance in and dance out.  With some of the women authors, take the romance scene for instance.  Tall, Dark, Bad Boy, yet more willing to take a back seat and let the female lead deal with certain tough situations than I could stomach.  A different guy type sure, maybe he'd stand back but not the titilating tough-guy character they need for the rest of the plot.  Which in addition to the hot and heavy bedroom action is part of why I can't stand the genre.  I'm here for the story, the horizontal action only as it promotes the story and gives it flavor.

I'm sure there are lots more examples of male authors getting the females wrong.  C.J. Cherryh once commented that she read something and just shook her head, thinking no female would think or do what that certain character was doing.

Plus in addition to being consistent with people and things we aren't as familiar with, there's the fact that we're writing a story about exciting people in circumstance most of us can only imagine.  We're not writing about House Wife Gwen and Family Man with 9-5 Job.  We're pushing the boundaries and writing about things that interest us.  Even when we try to stay away from certain stereotypes, the real world actually does have examples of such people breaking the 'rules'.  Naturally we want to include some of those in our story, even if only as peripheral characters.  Which takes practice, practice, practice, and a certain level of research and dedication until we get it right.

I actually like the Ilona Andrews husband wife team.  The wife ilona writes most everything, except the scenes with the male leads.  Then the husband writes at the male part.  It leads to a certain consistency with the man/woman dicotamy you normally run into with a single sex author ( :o not sure I used the right descriptor here  :P).


Anyway I think I've lost whatever point I was trying to make, and got lost in the weeds.

Have fun,

And don't let anyone get you down!  Certainly not me!@


The Deposed King



Proverbs 22:7, "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender"

The Deposed King (a member of baen's bar)