Who can pop a Containment Circle?

[UmbraLux]

After all, my understanding is that purely supernatural creatures (such as ghosts) cannot pass magical barriers, no matter how much Fate they have to spend.

Ghost Story seems to show differently.  Wonder if they'll include updates in the upcoming supplement? 

[Becq]

Ghost Story seems to show differently.  Wonder if they'll include updates in the upcoming supplement? 

Did it?  I recall there being a fairly complex plan to worked out with the intention of circumventing a particular magical barrier.  But perhaps I'm not remembering another scene that narrated it differently...

[Tedronai]

While I agree that that is what the mechanics say, I guess I'm basically saying that this is a non-standard compel.  After all, my understanding is that purely supernatural creatures (such as ghosts) cannot pass magical barriers, no matter how much Fate they have to spend.

A sufficiently advanced understanding of Compels resolves this issue.
Buying off a Compel does not necessarily indicate that the Compelled event does not occur, or that the Compelled restriction does not apply, but only that, for some reason, it does not negatively impacted the character.

[UmbraLux]

@ Becq:  Ghost Story spoilers:

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Weren't ghosts all over Mort's house?  Though I think only Sir Stuart was able to get into the office / lab.  I also seem to remember Harry pushing through one threshold...though I need to reread it to be certain.

[CottbusFiles]

If you are a spiritual creature and you get invited into a house the threeshold doesn't matter. And if the threeshold is weak then you can force your way through if you have enough power.

#and if a demon/erlking could break a circle by just stomping their foot then there wouldn't be such containmend circles. The existence of them shows that this is not possible. All the power of the beeing is stoped at the edge of the circle.

For the Storm Front example. I think Bob tossed him the bottle, he broke the circle and then Harry drank the potion to escape - no contradiction there.

[devonapple]

A sufficiently advanced understanding of Compels resolves this issue.
Buying off a Compel does not necessarily indicate that the Compelled event does not occur, or that the Compelled restriction does not apply, but only that, for some reason, it does not negatively impacted the character.

This is something that is easy to forget, even though there is a salient example in the books, so thank you for the reminder!

[Richard_Chilton]

If you are a spiritual creature and you get invited into a house the threeshold doesn't matter. And if the threeshold is weak then you can force your way through if you have enough power.

I disagree.  Purely spiritual creatures - ghosts, spirits - cannot force their way across a threshold.  In Grave Peril the super ghost couldn't break through thresholds - it had to use the "you leave this world when you dream" trick.  And in GS

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Harry encountered solid walls.  He couldn't begin to force his way through them.

#and if a demon/erlking could break a circle by just stomping their foot then there wouldn't be such containmend circles. The existence of them shows that this is not possible. All the power of the beeing is stoped at the edge of the circle.

Again, I'm not talking about projecting their power at the circle itself but at the environment and letting nature take its course.

Let me break it out.  We both agree that Demon Sorcerer can't cast an erase spell on the circle.  The point where there's some dispute on purely physical actions that are directed at the area bounded by the circle.

For example, Harry's summoning circle is in concrete.  If you apply a huge force to concrete (by standing your foot with beyond human strenght) it will crack with the cracks spreading out from the impact point.  Thus the cracks could spread to the binding circle itself.  Cracks in a circle renders it useless (unless they were there and forming the circle when you empowered it) which means that a demon could not have stamped his hoof that hard on concrete - otherwise he would have broken the circle and (lacking freewill) he cannot do that.

Richard

[Mr. Death]

You need leverage to break Concrete like that with sheer pressure. You need something holding you down so that all of the force generated by your pushing is going into the concrete and not being absorbed by your own body. Strong the Erlking or a demon might be, but they've got to work with physics just like anything else.

[Becq]

A sufficiently advanced understanding of Compels resolves this issue.
Buying off a Compel does not necessarily indicate that the Compelled event does not occur, or that the Compelled restriction does not apply, but only that, for some reason, it does not negatively impacted the character.

Right.  Got it.

But say you are a Hungry Ghost.  Your boss, Ebill Necromancer, has made it your goal in this particular bit of the afterlife to seek out Mr. Innocent Victim #3, who failed to yield the right-of-way yesterday and therefore must Suffer.  Unfortunately for you, that punk Wizard, Harry Dresden, got there first and put up a Magic Circle, inside which IV#3 is currently cowering.

This puts you in quite the predicament, because your entire purpose in existence at the moment is to kill IV#3, yet the annoying twit of a GM has just pointed out that a Hungry Ghost will melt into nothingness if it tries to cross a Magic Circle.  [Harry tags Magic Circle to trigger a GM compel on the high concept Hungry Ghost, or whatever variation of mechanics you choose to use to represent a magic circle].

Compels, of course, do not dictate an outcome, but limit your options or cause you difficulty in some way.  In this case, accepting the compel would mean that you accept that the Magic Circle thwarts at least your immediate attempt to eat IV#3, though it leaves a wealth of other options; some options might include raging and ranting and otherwise making your would-be victim soil himself, or eating the next door neighbor instead, or going home and crying.

But what would result from buying off the compel?  I would argue that if there is one option that is not available, it is "I spend a Fate point to ignore the compel, so the Magic Circle is no barrier to me eating IV#3".  Instead, it might be "I spend a Fate point to ignore the compel.  When I go back to Ebill, instead of blasting me to Kingdom Come (which might be a reward rather than a punishment), he forgets about IV#3 and pledges Bloody Vengeance on Harry Dresden instead.  He takes a ticket from the machine; it is number 378126."

Which is actually an example of accepting the magic-circle-induced compel, but buying off whatever compulsion Ebill laid of the ghost, instead.

Ok, I think I'm going to have to revise my thinking.  If a magic circle was merely a compel, then you should be able to buy off the compel as Tedronai states.  Which means it can't be 'merely' a compel.  So try this out for size:

Empower Magic Circle [-1]  The character adds the Empower Magical Circle trapping to their Lore skill.  This trapping allows the character to make a Lore declaration to change an existing scene aspect such as "Circle drawn in chalk" into a special scene aspect such as "Magic Circle drawn in chalk" -- and have it be true.  Assuming the Declaration is successful, the magic circle is treated as a threshold with a rating of half the character's Conviction (round up), with a minimum rating of 1.  Empowering a magic circle costs one point of mental stress.

So now there's still an aspect to play with, but there's also a threshold.  This would replace the whole sticky aspect "Violated a Circle" concept, since crossing the threshold already has mechanics for that.  Thoughts?  Balance issues?

[Mr. Death]

I'd suggest an alternative way to buy off the compel would be for circumstance to break the circle for you. Maybe IV#3 is too busy cowering to watch where he's stepping and accidentally breaks the circle himself.

[devonapple]

Let me break it out.  We both agree that Demon Sorcerer can't cast an erase spell on the circle.  The point where there's some dispute on purely physical actions that are directed at the area bounded by the circle.

Specifically, physical actions on each side of the circle.

There are many ways to visualize the power limits of these Circles, but most germane to this discussion are the following:
a) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, but with a floor at the level of the circle
b) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, and a shorter but still arbitrary distance below the level of the circle

Now with option a, the creature just CAN'T affect the ground, because they are, essentially, standing in a contiguous force field: any force they are able to exert hits the circle wall/floor/ceiling, and is resisted per the rules. It would be up to narrative expedience whether the circle's field of effect would flatten the grass beneath it (assuming a soil-and-grass locale for the circle), but then again, eliminating irregularites like that that may be something the wizard is assumed to have done in preparing the circle.

With option b, there is some wiggle room. Additionally, it opens up the possibility of serious circle instability, regardless of the being contained therein. Any number of living creatures dwelling in the soil may "cross" and break the circle's effect if it extends any distance below the actual level of a circle crafted on soil and grass. This would be a very "gotcha" style of play. I can see a wealthy and magic-savvy criminal preparing a network of tubes in a particularly tactical bit of concrete floor, rigged with bullets or other physical projectile which shoot at the same time, so that if an enemy spellcaster manages to get a circle set up there, the defender can immediately take it down by shooting through the "underground" portion of it. But that's just one possible ramification of this option.

I'm not remembering any real "gotcha" moments from the text which would support option b, so I'm inclined to go towards option a, and ruling that any physical damage the trapped being could levy is functionally bound in an all-or-nothing force field that transfers no energy (other than sheer spiritual emanations) to the surrounding soil/concrete/Jello sculpture.

Now I haven't seen

[Becq]

a) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, but with a floor at the level of the circle
b) a cylinder extending an arbitrary distance above the target, and a shorter but still arbitrary distance below the level of the circle

I've always thought of it as a half-sphere, rather than a cylinder.  But I'd agree with option (a) for dealing with the 'bottom' of the half-sphere.

I'd suggest an alternative way to buy off the compel would be for circumstance to break the circle for you. Maybe IV#3 is too busy cowering to watch where he's stepping and accidentally breaks the circle himself.

But then you're dictating the actions of someone else.  If anything, *that* situation would be modeled by some variation of accepting the compel, then performing some sort of a social attack to taunt the victim into attacking you (thus breaking the circle) or fleeing (thus breaking the circle).  But making someone act stupidly merely by spending a Fate to cancel a compel against you makes little sense to me.

[Mr. Death]

But then you're dictating the actions of someone else.  If anything, *that* situation would be modeled by some variation of accepting the compel, then performing some sort of a social attack to taunt the victim into attacking you (thus breaking the circle) or fleeing (thus breaking the circle).  But making someone act stupidly merely by spending a Fate to cancel a compel against you makes little sense to me.

Well, the way I look at it, that kind of depends on if IV#3 is a PC or an NPC.

The Compel is that the Circle prevents the ghost from chowing down, as I'm understanding the example. Buying off the compel means that the circle isn't getting in the way of your objective, and the buyoff clearly cannot be "Well, I just ignore the circle," but can be some form of, "Something breaks the circle."

Okay, so maybe IV#3 accidentally breaking it doesn't fly, but maybe some freak occurrence happens where something else breaks the circle instead. A squirrel wanders in, is frightened by the ghost, and flees across the circle. My point was, one way to buy off a compel that a magic circle is in your way is to have circumstance remove the magic circle from the equation.

[Orladdin]

You need leverage to break Concrete like that with sheer pressure. You need something holding you down so that all of the force generated by your pushing is going into the concrete and not being absorbed by your own body. Strong the Erlking or a demon might be, but they've got to work with physics just like anything else.

Nonsense.  You've never swung a sledgehammer at the floor, have you?
Earlking's "hoofs" would be much akin to sledgehammers.

[devonapple]

Nonsense.  You've never swung a sledgehammer at the floor, have you?
Earlking's "hoofs" would be much akin to sledgehammers.

I have helped destroyed a 10'x10' concrete foundation, using a sledgehammer, and it required a lot of room to swing - a lot more than I imagine is in a containment circle.

LFMF: never swing a crowbar, even a huge one, at concrete - it transfers almost ALL of that kinetic energy to your hands and arms.