Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?

[Starshine]

ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off.  this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox

This is exactly why I hate time travel stories.  It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.

You're assuming that because - as we read the story - these things are happening - that Harry already did them and therefore they are already 'done' and the timeline 'set'.  But that if Cowl were to come back and try to do the same thing - say kill Harry in the alley - it would be changing the timeline because the first time around [as we read the book] - he didnt do it, so coming back and doing it now would mean 'changing' things.  If I understand you correct, this is what you are saying?

But just because we dont see a different [earlier] timeline play out doesnt mean it didnt happen.  It MUST have happened, or future Harry would have no reason to come back into the past [his past, our present] to change it.   So there was an earlier version of the story in that book in which no one came back to stop it and Harry got severely injured in LC explosion.  To prevent that from happening - and to change the past - Harry comes back [in OPs post] to prevent LC from ever exploding.  It doesnt matter whether he interferes directly [the OP] or tells Mab [in your version] and she does it.  The result is the same - it wipes out the old timeline [which we never saw] and substitutes the new one [which is the book we read].

Cowl or someone else could do exactly the same thing.  The only difference is we first read the original timeline - Harry gets rescued by Gard.  And we get to read about how Cowl changed it so that Harry dies.  But both of them are changing the timeline and like I said - where does it stop?  It just creates a mess.  And if Harry can do it, then why not someone else?

Like I said, I just never read a story where it seemed realistic or believeable to me.

Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.

And as I read your post again it could be - sorry - that Im still misunderstanding your point??

[Griffyn612]

This is exactly why I hate time travel stories.  It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.

You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you? 

What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else.  Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would. 

For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans.  And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK.  PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law.  Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent.  PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff.  PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about".  And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it."  To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it."  Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion.  Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around.  Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.

Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.

Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.

No, time travel isn't needed to make it work.  But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.

[ImpishMortal]

You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you? 

What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else.  Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would. 

For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans.  And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK.  PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law.  Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent.  PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff.  PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about".  And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it."  To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it."  Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion.  Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around.  Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.

Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.

No, time travel isn't needed to make it work.  But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.

I don't think Harry Potter did it well, but it had way more plot holes and inconsistencies as a series than TDF does. Time travel also introduced critical logic issues into that series. Information and items don't just appear out of nowhere.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)

Besides, who says the bad guys are doing it constantly and that there aren't good guys who have had to travel back to "fix" things themselves? For example, I think the instance in which Harry "was supposed to die" at the hands of Corpsetaker could have originally played out that way, but was altered by someone traveling back and alerting Marcone. Harry would not have been able to do that (in this particular instance), so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."

[Starshine]

 so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."

LOL!  And see this is why I really dont like time travel stories - because why would the present ever stay the same.  Why wouldnt Corpsetaker go back and restore the original timeline by bringing in re-inforcements to deal with Gard? 

You could be right and this will happen at some point in the books, but I really hope not because it just doesnt work [for me].

[Starshine]

You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you? 

What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else.  Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would. 

For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans.  And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK.  PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law.  Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent.  PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff.  PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about".  And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it."  To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it."  Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion.  Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around.  Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.

Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.

Okay, now I see how this is working [and no I didnt read HP - did she do something similiar there?].  I think on superficial reading it works, but once you stop and start to think about it, for me it doesnt.  This is a general problem I have with all time travel [at least all that I've read].

What's to stop Future Cowl from going back into the past and whispering to Past Kumori - And thanks for reminding me to bring some back-up for dealing with Dresden in that alley - did they come in handy!

Then what happens - Kumori tells Cowl about what Future Cowl said.  Cowl brings his army of zombies or ghouls or maybe a Skinwalker [or something] with him to the alley.  They take on Gard and Harry dies in the alley.

No, time travel isn't needed to make it work.  But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.

Generally using time travel to explain something sounds kind of desperate to me - I dont mind using prescience, precognition - whatever you call it - glimpses of the future, intuition about the future.  That kind of ties in with the magic theme.  But having someone actually travel back in time and interact with it - it just raises all kinds of problems with me.  I guess there's a limit to the amount of belief I'm willing to suspend. 

But if you have time, Im curious.  What problems are you talking about that could be solved with time travel?  Im kind of doubtful there couldnt be a simpler, more believable solution.

[wardenferry419]

If I have to pick a point in the series that Harry goes back in time it would have to be Changes. During the chaotic battle, someone yells Fuego. Additionally, there is the time gap after he kills Susan. My assumption is that future Harry is there to stop someone from reversing the end of the RC. Harry being Harry can't help seeing Susan one last time before she is turned. That is when he the two Harrys meet. The time lapse is the result of mental magic. Thus, Harry breaks two laws of magic. The mental magic could fall under a technicality loophole since he is only doing it to himself.

[sandman1313]

yes starshine u r correct in my take on this and while i don't actual believe this is the path that will be taken( i believe the harry's subconscious is harry time traveling theory) if it was going to happen the way it works best for me is if we view time not as a multitude of time lines but as  a fixed plain. if we look at it like this then this theory whether it is mab sending harry back to retrieve the knife or the gatekeeper sending harry back is immaterial to the point which is the only way harry can go back in time is if he has already done so (or will have done so in the future, time travel makes tenses very confusing,) and he must figure out what he did but not change anything else paradox and BOOM this i y every one doesn't do it the risk out ways the profit which is none considering if u change anything u end all but if harry did it then he can do it.


Addressing the believability aspect we r talking about a book that the protagonist regularly does thing that r imposable in real life so what i say is make me belive it can happen in his world or not so long as it is a good story who cares if it is unrealistic after all it is fanatsy

[TheCuriousFan]

If I have to pick a point in the series that Harry goes back in time it would have to be Changes. During the chaotic battle, someone yells Fuego. Additionally, there is the time gap after he kills Susan. My assumption is that future Harry is there to stop someone from reversing the end of the RC.

Wasn't the shout of fuego a guy ordering the mercenaries to fire?

[Gman]

Wasn't the shout of fuego a guy ordering the mercenaries to fire?

You are correct.

[cass]

You are correct.

Is that from a WoJ? 

[Griffyn612]

I don't think Harry Potter did it well, but it had way more plot holes and inconsistencies as a series than TDF does. Time travel also introduced critical logic issues into that series. Information and items don't just appear out of nowhere.
(see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)

Besides, who says the bad guys are doing it constantly and that there aren't good guys who have had to travel back to "fix" things themselves? For example, I think the instance in which Harry "was supposed to die" at the hands of Corpsetaker could have originally played out that way, but was altered by someone traveling back and alerting Marcone. Harry would not have been able to do that (in this particular instance), so it strikes me that perhaps there are have been several alterations to the time stream, but that we only see the the altered time and not the original situation that had to be "fixed."

But we know in the Dresdenverse that time travel, or some equivalent, is possible.  Otherwise there wouldn't be a WC rule on it.  And supposedly WoJ is that all of the rules will be broken.  So if we're stuck with it, we have to make the best of it. 

Is that from a WoJ? 

I bet if JB has read as many posts on that 'Fuego' as I have, he regrets writing that one-liner joke. 

[sandman1313]

The WOJ isnt that all the rules would be broken it was some like" it is not like i have seven books outlined dealing with the laws" iirc

[Starshine]

The WOJ isnt that all the rules would be broken it was some like" it is not like i have seven books outlined dealing with the laws" iirc

Yes, you are right I think.  By coincidence I found this from another thread posted by The Curious Fan from a WoJ:

Will we ever see Dresden forced into a situation where he may have to jump through time to do something?

Jim's Response: That would require him breaking one of the laws of magic, and it's not as though I have seven books outlined, one for each law, or anything. We may, probably, possibly some see such as thing at some point.

Back to my comments [highlights mine BTW] :

Im kind of relieved by this.  The way I read it he DOESNT have some plan to have Harry or someone break all the Laws of Magic.  If it happens to further the plot, it happens.  But he's not  intentionally writing for it to happen.

I'd say it's 50/50 if there is going to be any actual time travel or not - PLEASE GOD! do I hope not!!!

[sandman1313]

I read somewhere jim is planing on doing a miorror mirror book which ends my my one time line theory (like i said b4 i belive the harrys subconsious time travel theory any ways) this would however have to be the result of breaking one of the laws a parodx event being the most likely at least to my mind please excuse any misspelling my tablet has no spell check and i am dyslexic

[Starshine]

I really enjoy answering questions like this one. 
I started writing up a potential topic discussing this very thing, so sorry if my response to this topic is a bit long, it’s something I’ve put a lot of thought into.

And I appreciate your taking the time to answer me in so much detail.  It was very interesting to read how this came about.

I wouldnt have guessed this series was plotted out so far in advance - even before he started SF.  The first couple of books are quite simple compared to what comes later and the tone of the books is much lighter, almost humorous.  Kind of reminded me of Nightstalker, if anyone remembers that TV show.  I thought we were in for a kind of magic detective type of mystery novel, and then - very suddenly [starting with Bianca's party, but really coming into its own in SK] - we make this 90 degree turn - the tone gets more serious, the plots get more complex, and we get this extraordinarily rich and creative mythology as a background.  And all the characters became very fleshed out and "real".

I really love this series - it's interesting to read about how it all came about.