Why was Molly taken to Arctis Tor?

[Starshine]

I hope Im not doing anything wrong here.  I was looking through some old theads and saw this one and was going to respond but I got a warning message saying it's better to start a new thread.  Im not sure how to do that and still quote from the old thread, so I just cut and paste and tried to use colors to differentiate the posters.

This is jman's original post:

Quote from jman

Re: Uriel and Lash
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2011, 07:53:03 PM »

   
Quote

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the attack on Arctis Tor by the Black Council was to try to get Molly back. IIRC, it was a fairly recent theory under the title of something like "Proven Guilty Revisited" on the forums (link). It proposed the idea that the Black Council's entire purpose in PG was to get Molly onto their side. In fact, she would have met a BC operative / pawn, Madrigal Raith at SplatterCon, who could have easily controlled her, had the fetches not showed up. It further theorized that Mab sent the fetches to disrupt the BC's plans by getting Dresden's attention (and that of the White Council), making the BC's plan all the more riskier. As well, the fetches could have been sent to kill Molly (think hobs & The Archive in SmF), hence her being used as the beacon OR to get Dresden to rescue her, discover her talent, and take her on as his apprentice, making her a weapon against the BC. Unfortunately, Mab underestimated just how much the BC wanted Molly (or wanted Molly not to be Dresden's apprentice), and the BC attacked Arctis Tor to get her back (possibly with some bad information on Mab's current condition/health). However, Mab just used them to further her own purpose by retreating, with Molly, into the WellSpring Garden/Prison (I made the name up) that the BC would be very stupid to try to get into, while they cleared her personal defenses out of Dresden's way. So they ran away or got beat back; either way, they weren't around when Dresden stormed in, killed the fetch, and saved Molly. Mab got what she wanted, except for the little bit of fire damage to the fountain of power. She should have had Dresden Insurance.


And this is part of Mira's comments on Jman's post:

This all brings me back to jman 101's theory about the Black Council wanting Molly, that they wanted her as a recruit for their side, but why?  The young Korean kid that loses his head at the beginning of Proven Guilty appeared to have just as much talent to use his mind on others as Molly, why not him? Or was it just that the Wardens caught up to him before the Black Council did?  Actually I do not think so, I do think however that yes, the BC wanted Molly, but not so much as a recruit, but as a way to create divisions in the enemy..  I find it very interesting that Summer was eager to lend a hand in the rescue, though Lea thought it would piss off Winter. That Mab was also present in the Garden and winked at Harry.  Harry tossed the light down the wellspring.

And this is my comments now:

I like jman's theory.  I was never clear on what was really going on in that book, but I assumed we'd find out eventually.  His theory really makes a lot of sense - esp about the BC wanting to turn Molly.  Of course they'd want Molly!  She was halfway there already, she wouldnt need more than a little push and she'd make a great recruit for them because of who she was.  Her family, Harry, Forthill , Sanya - they'd all trust her, let her close.  Wouldnt be suspicious.  Unlike the Korean kid, she had access to some of the BC's worst enemies.  If she'd been trained by them to use her mind control powers, she could control them all.  At the very least push them in the direction the BC wanted them to go.  She'd be worth her weight in gold to the BC.

And it really helps make sense out of Mab's actions too.  Of course she winked at Harry.  He was doing exactly what she wanted him to do.  I have to read it again with this in mind.. 

Thanks jman!  It's a great theory!

Currated in a link in the quote ^-Serack

[Vairelome]

As to the technical issue, what I usually do is open two tabs, one showing the thread I'm creating or posting in, and the other showing the thread I want to copy something from.  In the second tab, I hit the "Insert Quote" button at the top of the comment I want to quote, which creates a Post Reply window in that thread with the quoted text pre-formatted.  I then copy and paste all of the formatted text into the editing window in the first tab, close the second tab, and continue with what I was going to write.

The formatted text is useful, because it includes a link to the source of the quote immediately above the quote, and that link can easily be to a different thread than the current one.

I think jman's theory may be sound, but teasing out BC motivations will be seriously difficult due to minimal information before CD comes out.  I believe JB has said that the BC will show its hand much more clearly in the next book.

[Starshine]

Thanks for the tip - I'm still learning my way around these boards.

[wardenferry419]

BC may have wanted Molly to twist the knife in Michael. If they turn her to the coin then Michael may have to kill her. Could break his faith in God if he has to kill his Denarian daughter.

[Serack]

Something else that has been pointed out to me on the forums (bouncing theories off each other is so much fun) is that the lady who is running Splattercon!!! (I think she was named Sandra Marling but I'm not sure atm) met Molly while she was doing court ordered volunteering at a homeless shelter about a year ago. 

This is significant because:

• She is the same woman that gave Molly the idea of using fear to control someone with an addiction
• Coincidentally there was a Blampire affiliated with the Black Council working out of a homeless shelter about a year ago.

As to technical tips, if a topic is locked, you can't pull pregenerated quote code from it.  It isn't impossible to generate a quote header with the link info embedded though.  AcornArmy taught me a method that is prohibitively difficult, because one of the input parameters is how many seconds after some arbitrary time in the 1970's the post was written.

If you are developing a long, thought out, theory post with lots of quotes from the WoJ section, shoot me a whisper with links to the posts you want quote code for and I'll be glad to try to shoot you the quote code.

[Serack]

P.S. could you link to that old topic please.

NVM, I found it, and it's now locked, so pulling quote code from it is impossible.

[Serack]

Boohyah

I found the Topic that jman101 was referring to.  It's probably the best original theory posted in the past year or so IMO.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.msg1143979.html#msg1143979

I've gotta go archive it on my hard drive!

[Mira]

  I think it was a possible ploy by Mab to get Harry to witness what happened at Arctis Tor and report back to the Council about the use of Hell Fire etc.  I also think that Summer may have also played a part in it, I think that both Summer and Winter do not want the Denarians messing around in their affairs.

[Starshine]

Boohyah

I found the Topic that jman101 was referring to.  It's probably the best original theory posted in the past year or so IMO.

I see - so this idea was originally Knnn's?  Well, whoever first came up with it - kudos to you - I think it's great - it explains so much and it all hangs together.

Other things also click in place to support Knnn's theory - the link with the homeless shelter, Molly originally going to meet Crane.  None of this did I pick up when I read it, but once it's pointed out - it all makes sense and it's really clear.

I also like Knnn's idea of Molly being an Outsider-bane.  Yet another reason the BC would want her.  And why they'd go to any lengths to stop her becoming WC.

A corollary of this theory would be that the Gatekeeper, while he might have his own agenda in all this,  can't be a part of the BC.  If he was, he never would have warned Harry there was black magic in Chicago.  Maybe he's not Grey Council, but in his own way he's opposing the BC too.

One more thought - someone in that thread you quoted asked why Mab would have sent all her troops to Summer's borders if she thought BC were planning to attack Arctis Tor.  IMO Mab wanted to know who her enemies were.  The BC has always been rather anonymous/nebulous - working in the shadows.  I think Mab wanted to put faces to them so she'd know exactly who to destroy.  So she took something they really wanted [Molly] and sent her army away to entice the BC [or at least some of them] to come out in the open for once.  It worked to some extent - we know one of the Denarians showed up - he must be one of the major players.  And know she'll know who he is.

I dont think this gamble was as dangerous as it might at first appear.  Others have pointed out -  [1] Arctis Tor was her home and the seat of her power - very unlikely any enemy would have the power to defeat her there and [2] she could have recalled her army in a flash if it proved necessary [which apparently it didnt].

I just love this theory - it explains so much.  So Knnn - take a bow!

[Serack]

I also like Knnn's idea of Molly being an Outsider-bane.  Yet another reason the BC would want her.  And why they'd go to any lengths to stop her becoming WC.

My reply in that topic at #11 includes the WoJ that we have on the likely hood of other outsiderbanes other than Harry, and it doesn't strongly support this idea.

A corollary of this theory would be that the Gatekeeper, while he might have his own agenda in all this,  can't be a part of the BC.  If he was, he never would have warned Harry there was black magic in Chicago.  Maybe he's not Grey Council, but in his own way he's opposing the BC too.

Something that doesn't get tossed around here too often (well maybe in other words, by neurovore), but I kinda doubt it's as simple as White Council, Grey, council, and Black Council.  There's bound to be opposing goals within any conspiracy in the background.   Although they might never be fleshed out, who knows.

One more thought - someone in that thread you quoted asked why Mab would have sent all her troops to Summer's borders if she thought BC were planning to attack Arctis Tor.  IMO Mab wanted to know who her enemies were.  The BC has always been rather anonymous/nebulous - working in the shadows.  I think Mab wanted to put faces to them so she'd know exactly who to destroy.  So she took something they really wanted [Molly] and sent her army away to entice the BC [or at least some of them] to come out in the open for once.  It worked to some extent - we know one of the Denarians showed up - he must be one of the major players.  And know she'll know who he is.

The longs standing theory WRT to Mab's motivations for keeping her armies at the boarders is that she is stuck in some kind of bargain with some members of the "Black Council" that she managed to work around by using Harry as a proxy when she dragging Molly to Arctis Tor.  knnn's Theory is kind of a fleshing out/alternate explanation of that longer standing theory.

I dont think this gamble was as dangerous as it might at first appear.  Others have pointed out -  [1] Arctis Tor was her home and the seat of her power - very unlikely any enemy would have the power to defeat her there and [2] she could have recalled her army in a flash if it proved necessary [which apparently it didnt].

The DFRPG is not quite cannon, but more like if someone from the boards got to sit in Billy's head and write out all the theories while getting to ask Harry for reluctant opinions on them, but in one of the books for the RPG is a sort of power level structure of something like seven tiers.  The first 3 tiers were what I payed attention to and they go something like this.

• Rarified power level that doesn't act much nowadays including TWG
• Archangels, Lucifer, the "Mothers"
• The "Queens," Ferrovax, the Erlking...

[Starshine]

My reply in that topic at #11 includes the WoJ that we have on the likely hood of other outsiderbanes other than Harry, and it doesn't strongly support this idea.

Let me ask a general question about WoJ - does he never change his mind?  Writing is usually a fluid process.  You can suddenly wake up with a great idea - even if it's not the way you were originally planning to go.  Anything he said recently is probably what he intends to do [now], but older quotes might only show where his mind was tending then - 5 years ago, 7 years ago.  Im only asking.  Or is he the kind of writer who maps the whole series out beforehand and never deviates.

The longs standing theory WRT to Mab's motivations for keeping her armies at the boarders is that she is stuck in some kind of bargain with some members of the "Black Council" that she managed to work around by using Harry as a proxy when she dragging Molly to Arctis Tor. 

I like Knnn's theory better.  That she did this to point a spotlight on Molly and prevent the BC from subverting her, and also [I think] to try and entice some of the senior BC out in the open to better identify them.  Both strategies worked - and that's how I see Mab - a real chess player.  And Knnn's explanation fits the facts we know from the book better IMO.

The problem with the LST is why would Mab enter 'some kind of bargain' with the BC after what they tried to do to Lea.  She'd be furious with them [which is why she interfered in their plans for Molly] and also extremely wary - she saw what deals with them did to Lea.  I cant believe Mab would be that stupid.

The DFRPG is not quite cannon, but more like if someone from the boards got to sit in Billy's head and write out all the theories while getting to ask Harry for reluctant opinions on them, but in one of the books for the RPG is a sort of power level structure of something like seven tiers.  The first 3 tiers were what I payed attention to and they go something like this.

• Rarified power level that doesn't act much nowadays including TWG
• Archangels, Lucifer, the "Mothers"
• The "Queens," Ferrovax, the Erlking...

Interesting - so the dragons have as much power as the Queens?  And Michael killed one?  Im surprised more Denarians arent dead. 

And PS - thanks for the tips on how to quote - It worked!

[TheCuriousFan]

The Swords appear to work by negating the opponent's power rather than making the wielder powerful, the Denarians are still around because the Knights appear to be against the idea of calling in backup (despite the fact that they could call on plenty of things wronged by the Denarians) and because the Denarians have mooks who appear to be dangerous in large numbers.

[Arjan]

The problem with the LST is why would Mab enter 'some kind of bargain' with the BC after what they tried to do to Lea.  She'd be furious with them [which is why she interfered in their plans for Molly] and also extremely wary - she saw what deals with them did to Lea.  I cant believe Mab would be that stupid.

Who said she lost in that bargain? Sure it made life more difficult but she can work around that and at the end she will probably the one getting most out of it.

Interesting - so the dragons have as much power as the Queens?  And Michael killed one?  Im surprised more Denarians arent dead. 

And PS - thanks for the tips on how to quote - It worked!

The dragon Michael killed was not as powerfull as ferrofax. I believe there is WOJ about that as well.

[TheCuriousFan]

The dragon Michael killed was not as powerfull as ferrofax. I believe there is WOJ about that as well.

Yes, the Dragon Michael killed was stated to be the weakest of the remaining Dragons IIRC.

[Starshine]

Who said she lost in that bargain? Sure it made life more difficult but she can work around that and at the end she will probably the one getting most out of it.

I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why.  And it all fits.  That's why I like it.

My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC.  She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.