Magic and Technology

[TMW]

Well yes, it has been done before.  But how would it work within the magic system for the Dresden files, is what I'm asking.

[johntfs]

Well yes, it has been done before.  But how would it work within the magic system for the Dresden files, is what I'm asking.

It wouldn't.  You can be a tech guy, or you can be a wizard, but you can't be both.  At least not in Jim Butcher's world. 

That said, a wizard's handicap opens up some fairly good options for mortal players.  Sure, your wizard can throw fireballs, but he can't perform a simple internet search without making his PC explode.

[Kalium]

Well, we don't conclusively know that. The only wizard we've seen anywhere near high tech stuff is Harry, and we know he's not a fair representative for all magedom.

[finarvyn]

Well, we don't conclusively know that. The only wizard we've seen anywhere near high tech stuff is Harry, and we know he's not a fair representative for all magedom.

Not conclusively, but...

If you plan to create a simulation of a literary world it often helps to look at examples from that world and build your simulation around that. With each book Jim adds a few new twists and elements to his world, but as a game designer that can be dangerous because it might not fit the big picture.

For example, look at Middle-earth:
1. Tolkien no longer can add to the world, so the picture is more clear. At least he can't change his mind.
2. Like Harry, Gandalf may be an exception to the rule. In Middle-earth this is because maiar (like Gandalf) are sort of like angels and each sems unique (the 5 wizards had differing abilities), plus Gandalf has one of the three great elven rings to assist him.
3. Gandalf has certain types of magic (fire, for example) but we notice that most of his magic is subtle and changes a process rather than crazy blasting magic. To use a "traditional" spell system for Middle-earth with a gaudy spell list, certain number of spells per day, and so on, would strip much of the life away from wizards in this world. That's just not the way they operate, so running a game that way doesn't work right. Would we want a "first lavel maiar" in the game?

Harry's world can be looked at in much the same way:
1. Jim clearly isn't dead and is still writing, so he may be adding twists as we go. This world still evolves, which makes our simulation very tricky.
2. Lots of people say that Harry is the exception, but in what way? Are all wizards different, and if so just how different? Harry has access to some non-traditional magic (for his world) and so we may not ever know how much is Harry and how much is the other stuff.
3. We have seen no examples of magic style X, but it may pop up in the next book. We don't want to rob the setting of its flavor, but if Jim doesn't use something we should be careful before we assume it should be in there.

So ... in my opinion we use Harry as the main template. Wizards mess up technology. Could there be a techno-mage (for example)? My answer is "no", unless Jim decides to put one in. In that case, we revise the model. 

Just my two cents.

[rdonoghue]

Actually, I am under the impression that Ramirez is even more tech-friendly than Harry is, but that's just an inference.

Honestly, I had a working theory for a while that the key of magic and technology was all about the wizard's level of _understanding_.  The wizard had to trust and understand somethings innards to not create a conflict with it.  This correlates soemwhat with simiplicity, but it also moves forward with age - there is tech that Harry can use because he has more of a natural understanding of it than an older wizard would, and a younger wizard, growing up now, may have even fewer problems.  it means that ebenezar's truck runs because it's one of those good old fashioned ones that he could take apart and put back together with tools in his barn if he needed.  He _knows_ every piece of it, and as such, nothing will go mysteriously wrong as a result of magic - there's no mystery to it. 

Not only did it work pretty well, it opened up a lot of possibilities in terms of what the trade off between magic and tech really is - can you be a good electrical engineer and still also have the time to learn to be a wizard? If so, could it open new an interesting vistas?  I had a lot of fun thinking about it.


Unfortunately, I was wrong.  Sad, but such is life.

-Rob D.

[Kalium]

So, care to enlighten us then?

[The Last Bean]

Seems to me that the solution to magic-proofing technology has already been given to us in the form of Butters and his GPS. By erecting a magic circle around it he was able to screen it from magical interference on a pretty serious scale.

Perhaps the best way to screen tech against magic is, ironically, a spell? Create a warding against magic around the object, then it should be fine? Especially if you leave it turned off while you're working so that it doesn't get fried while the spell's being cast.

And that "Understanding equals not explodey" theory is pretty interesting... makes for an interesting element to add into the game. (Tech Friendly as a stat, for example)

The other theory on why magic hates technology that made a lot of sense to me was (don't remember where this came from) that technology is based on the rules of physics, and magic tends to change them on a pretty frequent basis. So the problem with Dresden and a GPS is that the silicon chips in a GPS are counting that planck's constant won't be changing in the near future, and that the conductivity of silicon doesn't change. When a wizard enters into the physics, he might be changing such minor, unobservable properties ever so slightly without realizing it. Enough teensy little changes and "paf"... you're down one peice of tech.

Also goes a long way towards explaining why simple tech works better. The inherent necesary phsyics of a revolver are: "Springs pull things, levers work, gunpowder explodes, and metal is hard". Not exactly subtle or unmeasurable quantities there. Also, this and the "understanding equals not explodey" principle might work together, since once a more subtle law of physics is understood by the wizard, he might not make the subconcious alterations to it that another, less knowledgeable wizard would. (example: I know magnets hurt computers, and why. Harry doesn't really. So why would he bother to avoid making magnetic waves while around them?)

[johntfs]

Except that Harry apparently does have a decent layman's understand of technology.  If you'll recall, the GPS is Harry's idea, because he read about it in magazine in the library.  So while Harry certainly wouldn't have much "hands-on" knowledge about technology, it appears that he probably has at least a decent amount of "book-learning" about it.

[Kalium]

Except that Harry apparently does have a decent layman's understand of technology.  If you'll recall, the GPS is Harry's idea, because he read about it in magazine in the library.  So while Harry certainly wouldn't have much "hands-on" knowledge about technology, it appears that he probably has at least a decent amount of "book-learning" about it.

He understands that it works, but nothing about it that we know of. The difference is huge. If he had decent "book-knowledge", he would know about the EM physics involved and such. What he has is a vague knowledge that it exists.

[johntfs]

Somehow I don't really see "understanding" as the key to this.  Harry seems to be an intelligent, curious, research-oriented guy.  It seems quite likely that he's tried in the past to understand how magic messes with tech, if for no other reason than he's kind of a "wizard-nerd."

It's also fairly obvious that he's failed to find any kind of decent "magic bullet" to allows him to use technology with any reliability.  The man has an icebox with actual ice.  He cooks on a wood-burning stove.  He doesn't have electricity, using candles and magic for light.  He drives the simplest, most easily repairable car he can.  If solving the "magic-tech" problem was simply a matter of "Ah, I just need to use the ward vs. Magnetism and all will be well", I figure somebody else would've found it by now.

Personally, I think that magic is really just focused probability.  The area around a wizard, especially a strong one, is charged with that probability.  So, any time a some piece of delicate, complicated machinery goes near a wizard, it has a good chance of blowing out.  This is because it has an extremely narrow range of probabilities that allow it to exist.  Alter those probabilities and the thing stops working, often in a shower of sparks.

[The Doctor]

He understands that it works, but nothing about it that we know of. The difference is huge. If he had decent "book-knowledge", he would know about the EM physics involved and such. What he has is a vague knowledge that it exists.

If Harry only read a couple of magazine articles on GPS units and suchlike, chances are the articles would not go into great detail on their inner workings because such articles are written as overviews of technologies and what applications they could have, not the theory and implementation therof.

[neminem]

I have this to point out about Harry, though - he seems like the sort of guy who generally does something, assuming it works reasonably well - because he's always done it that way. We know it's possible for wizards to stay around technology without anything going wrong - we saw that in Death Masks. The spell he used was ridiculously complicated, required complete concentration and failed at the least mistake. But he also probably didn't spend a long time researching the problem. Suppose we had a geek-minded person like Butters, who also happened to have wizardly powers on a Dresden-like level. Do you honestly think that person wouldn't research the hell out of the problem, until they'd found a spell that required less constant thought, and was more reliable?

I honestly don't buy your thought, johntfs (does your name have anything to do with the file-system, incidentally?) - Harry is a huge wizard-nerd, yes, but that's about the only kind of nerd he is. I've always gathered that he doesn't use technology because, well, that's just the way it works.

Then, too, I gather that in the Dresdenverse, magic often does what you think it will. That's not the only issue, of course, but I imagine that he'd at least find it easier to figure out how to ward technology from his effects, if he thought it would be easy to find.

P.S. You know, if it were just a matter of probabilities... a phone requires way less delicate calculation than, say, a human brain.

Wow, this thread is going way off topic... sorry for contributing to that, but it's an interesting discussion.

[Mickey Finn]

As Harry's magic comes from life itself, brains are probably no going to affected by the ambient field

[Kalium]

As Harry's magic comes from life itself, brains are probably no going to affected by the ambient field

Last I checked, brains basically ran on electricity.

[The Last Bean]

Yes, but they run on Biochemical electricity. It is a well esablished fact in the dresdenverse that magic comes from life, and even seems to support and protect it at a basic level. (Such as the fact that wizards live a really long time and will recover from almost any injury) One could even make the argument that technology is being damage because of its dissimilarity to the natural order of things, and the fact that it is not, in fact, living.