Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?

[Gatts]

I did a search, but nothing came up so I'm sorry if this has already been answered.

How much refresh would you price Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation by itself, with none of the other trappings? Would it be balanced at all?

[UmbraLux]

At least four refresh or three if ritual instead of full thaumaturgy.  Might go as high as five and four respectively since it also seems to avoid a sponsor's agenda.

[Gatts]

At least four refresh or three if ritual instead of full thaumaturgy.  Might go as high as five and four respectively since it also seems to avoid a sponsor's agenda.

Thanks, yeah it would avoid a Sponsor's Agenda. Is 'Evothaum' really half of Sponsored Magic though?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Sponsored Magic is normally 4 Refresh.  You get one off for Evo or Thaum.  Now, you wouldn't have the ability to accrue debt to boost powers or new elemental focus option (like Summer or Winter), but you also wouldn't have the sponsor's agenda to deal with.  So, if you've got Thaum and Evo, I'd say two refresh for a single type (like transformation magic).  If you only have Thaum, I'd price it at 3.  If you only have Evo, I don't think it'd be possible.

[UmbraLux]

Thanks, yeah it would avoid a Sponsor's Agenda. Is 'Evothaum' really half of Sponsored Magic though?

There's a difference between "EvoThaum" and "EvoRitual".  Hmm, not sure the shorthand makes sense.  Point is, the thaumaturgy at evocation's speed etc given by a sponsor is limited to a theme, it's not all of thaumaturgy. 

Don't remember for sure whether or not Kemmlerians get thaumaturgy at evocation's speed but, assuming they do, they'll only be able to create fast rituals for necromancy and related spells.  They'll have to used normal thaumaturgy if they want to transform something.

So my pricing above was based on Thaumaturgy and Ritual...adding at least one refresh to either for the ability to cast faster.  And it may be worth two since you're not limited by debt or an external agenda.

[Tedronai]

It's...early?  And I'm tired, so forgive me if my post seems a mite disjointed.

The ability to accrue sponsor debt is by no means a limitation.

All of Thaumaturgy at evocation's speed and methods is worth at least 3 points, if not upwards of 5 or so, in its own right.
(assuming either that you can use Thaumaturgy normally in addition to the altered version or that you're only paying for the altered version)

Kemmlerian Necromancy grants both necromantic and psychomantic thaumaturgical rituals with the speed and methods of evocation.

[UmbraLux]

The ability to accrue sponsor debt is by no means a limitation.

That depends on how different your sponsor's agenda is from yours...   

All of Thaumaturgy at evocation's speed and methods is worth at least 3 points, if not upwards of 5 or so, in its own right.
(assuming either that you can use Thaumaturgy normally in addition to the altered version or that you're only paying for the altered version)

I was leaning more towards two plus thaumaturgy's cost, but I can see arguments for more.  It's certainly a powerful ability.

Kemmlerian Necromancy grants both necromantic and psychomantic thaumaturgical rituals with the speed and methods of evocation.

Thanks.  Couldn't remember and didn't have the book handy.

[InFerrumVeritas]

You want ALL OF THAUMATURGY with evocation's methods and speed?  Um, I'd price that at Thaumaturgy+2 for the first type you want (let's say Summoning) and then an additional +1 for an additional type, limited to a maximum number of types by your Lore bonus.  In universe, you'd be looking at Archive level understanding of magic.

[Tedronai]

That depends on how different your sponsor's agenda is from yours...   

The only way sponsor debt can negatively impact a character is by way of the effect of compels.  Compels for which the player has already been 'payed'.
Sponsor debt being nothing more than pre-paid compels, it can, in fact, impact a character in no other way than by compels.
All compels are, ostensibly, equal, regardless of source.

[Sanctaphrax]

@thread: I'd say 4-5 refresh.

@InFerrumVeritas: How impressive it is in-universe does not have to correspond to how much it costs. How impressive it is in-game does. Being an omnipotent god could be an aspect, and therefore free, without balance problems.

@Tedronai: I agree completely. Other interpretations lead to people "gaming" their aspects, which is very bad. You should not be penalized for taking a "bad" aspect, and the same principle applies to sponsors.

[UmbraLux]

The only way sponsor debt can negatively impact a character is by way of the effect of compels.  Compels for which the player has already been 'payed'.
Sponsor debt being nothing more than pre-paid compels, it can, in fact, impact a character in no other way than by compels.
All compels are, ostensibly, equal, regardless of source.

True but, because you're already been paid, it's much harder to say "No" than to a standard compel.  (Unless you don't have fate points when being compelled.)  But you're correct in the agenda being more limiting than debt.

[Tedronai]

Debt is limiting.
The ability to accrue debt is quite the opposite.

As to 'saying NO', when being compelled via sponsor debt, you simply can't.
Unless your GM is ignoring the rules and/or simply being a jerk, though, you shouldn't have to.  The compel is still a negotiation, and still only restricts/complicates choices rather than mandating them.

[Gatts]

I realise in hindsight how powerful the entirety of Thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation is, and yeah more or less doubling the price seems justified. But how about something like Ritual? That's usually more or less as limited as Sponsored Magic to begin with.

(And thanks for all the replies guys!)

[citadel97501]

I would think either way its going to be treated like an extraordinarily powerful sponsored magic, but basically you use it as if you were your own patron, so you can't accrue debt. 

So that would be 4 points on top of Thaumaturgy for a total of 7 points, with the normal discount for also taking Evocation to drop its cost by 1 to a total of 10.  However I also wouldn't mind a slightly cheaper version that only applies to one type of thaumaturgical magic, such as Summoning, or Divination. 

[wyvern]

As to 'saying NO', when being compelled via sponsor debt, you simply can't.

False.  It's quite clear that you can - at the cost of a fate point.  There's even a sidebar where it discusses what happens to the point of debt when you do this - and the answer is, the debt's still there, but the sponsor can't try to compel that particular issue again.

As for the thread topic - I'd cost it in the following way: musts: You must have full evocation & thaumaturgy before you can even consider taking this power.  One refresh per evocation element (or similarly limited theme).  So the total cost would be: 3 (thaumaturgy) + 3 (evocation) + 2 (refinement to get access to the other two evocation elements + 5 (one refresh per element's worth of evothaum) = 13 refresh spent to be able to pretend you're a mini-archive.  (For replicating the actual archive, consider another 10 refresh in refinement, plus lore & discipline skills at 8 or higher.)