Rules for Pets and Allies

[Orladdin]

I like this:

I just have some issue with quality rating. I'm assuming as long as the PC can bull$**! his way around it: any skill (within reason) can function as the QR?

There is a fine line between bullshit and roleplay.  A very, very fine line.

Yes, the contributing skill (currently) can be negotiated, (just like everything in a FATE game,) but it should probably be based on the kind of cohort the player is attempting to recruit.  Want an arcane familiar?  It should probably be based on your Lore.  Want a loyal battle-butler?  It should probably be based on your Presence.  I'd suggest we codify which skills are applicable when we do a formal write-up.

I also agree with Sanctaphrax that "armies" of minions should be handled differently than an important NPC/ally/buddy/pet.

I agree entirely.

I think the following should also be required.  The PC must have an aspect tied to his NPC/army/ally/buddy/pet. "My BFF from the cheerteam - Name X!" or "Fanatics die for me like lemmings"

I think the NPC/army/ally/buddy/pet needs to have an aspect (perhaps even the high concept to ensure loyalty) related to the person who bought them.

Yeah, having a follower with an aspect related to who they follow makes perfect sense.  I actually kind of assumed it went without saying.  My bad.

In my game they actually had three aspects: High Concept, Trouble and Style
The high concept would be something like, "Apprentice to Allergan the Wizard" or "Squire to Beatrix Rosethorn"

How do we feel about the NPC/buddy/ally/pet/army having any refresh at all?

 Can said entity aquire fate points?  I am inclined to say no unless the entity has a major impact on the story  OR is a part of a small game (player pool is 2 or less).

If refresh ratings are allowed, we have to assume the entity has a measure of free will. 

If refresh ratings are allowed what should that cost?

What happens to refresh (spent by the player) when said entity is destroyed? I would hope it is refunded.

The entity should not have refresh that isn't provided by the player/primary character.  Otherwise it becomes possible to create infinite loops or "free" refresh.  Big no-no.
As I stated previously, though, the main character can spend their refresh to buy the ally powers/stunts.
Also, the entity should share a FP pool with the main character/owning player.  This lets the player invoke the ally's aspects as well as his own, and accept compels on the ally.

Who should have control over the entity's actions? PC or GM?

The PC.  The GM already has NPCs and enough other things going on.  The PC also created the ally with his/her own refresh.  It's essentially an extension of their main character.  The ally can be compelled, though, using its aspects.

[Silverblaze]

Good to see we're mostly on the same page then.

[Sanctaphrax]

I mostly agree. Just two quibbles:

I'd suggest we codify which skills are applicable when we do a formal write-up.

I don't think we should. It'd be a pretty pointless set of extra rules.

From a balance point of view, there's no need to prevent people from getting minions with their Athletics skill. In fact, the game is probably better balanced if everyone at the same power level gets the same minion quality.

The only problem with Athletics minions is that they don't make much sense.

And rules writers shouldn't try to tell people what makes sense. Let the players work it out themselves.

The PC.  The GM already has NPCs and enough other things going on.  The PC also created the ally with his/her own refresh.  It's essentially an extension of their main character.  The ally can be compelled, though, using its aspects.

I disagree with this, as I said earlier in the thread.

See, I think that making companions into obedient NPCs makes the stunts much less abusable while making them more interesting to play.

If my faithful bodyguard gets separated from me he should not automatically know what I want him to do. If he's an NPC, you can get that without resorting to Compels. And without placing a burden on the player, who might have trouble not metagaming in such a situation. (I probably would.)

Plus, almost every nightmare situation I can think of with these powers becomes less nightmarish if the companions are not player-controlled.

And finally, it lets players interact with their companions without talking to themselves. This is probably the most important point.

Suppose my companion is my girlfriend. We're having relationship problems. That could be a good scene, but if I'm playing the companion then the scene is sabotaged by the fact that I'm the only one in it.

My character's companions should be controlled by my character through orders or requests, not by me through player power.

If it's a hassle for the GM, groups can give the player more direct control. But I'd rather not make that the default, and the GM should still have control over consequence-taking and other such things.

As for mobs with Refresh, I'm thinking that they should get Refresh at twice the cost that normal companions get it at. Maybe let people trade a minion for a set of Powers and Stunts that would cost the player 1 Refresh.

[Orladdin]

I mostly agree. Just two quibbles:

I don't think we should. It'd be a pretty pointless set of extra rules.

From a balance point of view, there's no need to prevent people from getting minions with their Athletics skill. In fact, the game is probably better balanced if everyone at the same power level gets the same minion quality.

The only problem with Athletics minions is that they don't make much sense.

And rules writers shouldn't try to tell people what makes sense. Let the players work it out themselves.

Yeah, alright.  Perhaps we just include the two examples I gave, then; providing the common suggestions for Presense or Lore and leaving the rest up to the players.  No reason to box people in if we don't have to-- they can discourse with their table about what's a reasonable "leadership" skill to use.

I disagree with this, as I said earlier in the thread.

See, I think that making companions into obedient NPCs makes the stunts much less abusable while making them more interesting to play.

If my faithful bodyguard gets separated from me he should not automatically know what I want him to do. If he's an NPC, you can get that without resorting to Compels. And without placing a burden on the player, who might have trouble not metagaming in such a situation. (I probably would.)

Plus, almost every nightmare situation I can think of with these powers becomes less nightmarish if the companions are not player-controlled.

And finally, it lets players interact with their companions without talking to themselves. This is probably the most important point.

Suppose my companion is my girlfriend. We're having relationship problems. That could be a good scene, but if I'm playing the companion then the scene is sabotaged by the fact that I'm the only one in it.

My character's companions should be controlled by my character through orders or requests, not by me through player power.

If it's a hassle for the GM, groups can give the player more direct control. But I'd rather not make that the default, and the GM should still have control over consequence-taking and other such things.

Sound arguments, and I think I see it your way now.  It does make the RP much easier.  Interacting with yourself just feels weird sometimes.

It also stops Pun-Pun type nonsense on the off-chance such a loophole exists now or in the future.  The follower can sell you out up the river if the GM sees you gathering Unlimited Cosmic Power^TM.

As for mobs with Refresh, I'm thinking that they should get Refresh at twice the cost that normal companions get it at. Maybe let people trade a minion for a set of Powers and Stunts that would cost the player 1 Refresh.

Yeah, perhaps.  They are at the severe disadvantage of having little-to-no skills relative to the PCs...  but powers or stunts that don't directly require skills are still going to be too powerful.  You'd need a "restricted powers" list for the accross-the-board discount to be viable. 

For example, what happens when someone takes followers 3 times, gives up 4 of his 8 followers to give the rest of them all un-catched Physical Invulnerability?  It's too good.  If the PC already had PI, it's not as bad-- but still.

[Orladdin]

Do we want groups of followers to share a set of stunts?  Or do we want players to have to micromanage their mooks?

Lets say I want my primary character mechanic to be a leader of men.  I take followers 6 times, and end up with some number of followers -- let's say 18 for the sake of discussion.
Can I drop 8 of them to grant all of my followers a shared-set of 8 stunts (which are based on skill ratings, and therefore are less useful to the followers than to a PC)?  Or do I then get 8 stunts to divide between them (requiring micromanagement)?

---

Continuing with the discussion on costing:
What if you can give up individual followers to grant stunts to the rest of them, but to buy them powers, you must spend your own refresh directly.

This would help deal with the innate cost imbalance of stunts-to-powers, and would give a supernatural leader a reason to have normal mooks.

[Sanctaphrax]

Do we want groups of followers to share a set of stunts?  Or do we want players to have to micromanage their mooks?

Pretty sure they should share. If they're not identical, they're not really a minion mob.

Lets say I want my primary character mechanic to be a leader of men.  I take followers 6 times, and end up with some number of followers -- let's say 18 for the sake of discussion.
Can I drop 8 of them to grant all of my followers a shared-set of 8 stunts (which are based on skill ratings, and therefore are less useful to the followers than to a PC)?  Or do I then get 8 stunts to divide between them (requiring micromanagement)?

The former. At least, that's what I had in mind.

What if you can give up individual followers to grant stunts to the rest of them, but to buy them powers, you must spend your own refresh directly.

This would help deal with the innate cost imbalance of stunts-to-powers, and would give a supernatural leader a reason to have normal mooks.

Interesting idea. I'm not sure whether it's necessary, since Stunts are pretty competitive with Powers when you're making a focused character with only a few Refresh to spend.

But if it's going to be possible to get minions who don't suck, then we should do that. Or maybe we should just not let people ditch minions for Refresh. One or the other.

PS: This discussion has given me an idea for stunts that cost more than 1 Refresh. Expect a thread about that tomorrow.

[Praxidicae]

Regarding the followers sharing stunts, sounds good, but what about cases where I want my character to have more than 1 type of minion, ones with different powers or skills, or just one's adapted for different scenarios i.e.

My Character is a playboy billionaire in charge of a team of Mercenary mooks, but also has a team of high-powered lawyers who get him out of the various legal scrapes that his mercenary dealings get him into.

Now I could always build 1 set of minions as a crack team of Commando Solicitors, but tbh that doesn't make much sense, so I would suggest that each subsequent purchase of the 'Minions' stunt be able to be used either to increase the number of minions in a previous Minion Type, or to create a new type of minions at the base number. This is one of the reasons I quite like the 'Scope' pseudo skills from Kerberos , as they allow you to build clearly defined minion 'types' quite easily, without picking individual skills.

As a follow on, and I'll probably phrase this poorly, do you think it's worth limiting the 'recovery' of minions after a conflict. For example say my aforementioned Mercenary Playboy has a base set of 10 Mercenary goons, and gets into a gunfight with some mobsters, during which half a dozen of his allotted minions are injured or killed. A short break follows a second conflict follows on soon after, would the PC start with -

• a 'refreshed' pool of 10 mercs (making the assumption that he has a vast mercenary army in the wings and those that are seen are merely his bodyguards);
• a reduced pool of 4, with the injured or deceased minions being assumed as 'casualties' or being treated, and needing some time to be replaced;
• a number between 4 and 10 representing the negation of any partial damage to minions (as I believe SotC treats returning NPC minions) but with fatalities removed until some later time;
• a number between 4 and 10 with the numbers over 4 generated through some random "recruitment/recovery" roll.

Personally I'd like to see a little randomness introduced in some way, but that's just me.

On a similar note, what about in cases where the PC's are approaching a climactic encounter. Whether storming the mansion of the Red Court Baron, decyphering the final clue on the runic tablet, or negotiating with a Sidhe Lord, one would assume that all available manpower would be brought to bear upon the goal, so perhaps a way of boosting the available number of minions for a scene would be appropriate, perhaps an statement that Fate Points can be spend to gain a bonus number of minions for 1 scene (I know this would technically be allowed through the temporary powers rules, but an explicit statement might be justified)

[Orladdin]

@Praxidicae:

Yeah, I would think "refreshing" your minion pool would happen at a milestone of some kind (like swapping out or recharging magic items).

I like the idea of boosting your supply temporarily with FP expenditure.  That's a cool idea.

Now I could always build 1 set of minions as a crack team of Commando Solicitors, but tbh that doesn't make much sense...

I'm imagining a bare-chested muscle-man with a necktie tied around his forehead to keep the sweat and hair out of his eyes, clenching a fountain pen in his teeth as he army-crawls up the aisle of a courtroom.
Sense?  No.  Awesome?  Yes. 

Seriously, though, I would think multiple groups of minions would work exactly like you proposed.  We should word the power/stunt such that each time you take it (or put refresh towards it) you either create a new minion group or improve an existing one.

[Sanctaphrax]

+1 to what Orladdin said.

Anyway, I have a new thread up about multi-Refresh stunts. It contains a stunt written under these rules.

If you could take a look and tell me what you think, I'd appreciate it.

PS: Should being an animal count as a quirk? I'm starting to think it should, but I didn't make it so when I wrote the example stunt.

[Tedronai]

PS: Should being an animal count as a quirk? I'm starting to think it should, but I didn't make it so when I wrote the example stunt.

That depends on the definition of 'being an animal'.
An animal-level intellect and (in)capacity for complex communication should most certainly qualify, IMHO.
If that animal is 'awakened' such that it now has human-normative-range intellect and the capacity for intelligible complex communication, then I don't think so.  Well, maybe if it's a sea cucumber or somesuch and thus can't actually meaningfully interact physically with the world in the way one would expect of a human, or trained monkey or ape.

[Sanctaphrax]

On reflection, I agree.

I'll post an attempt at pet/ally/minion stunt rules later today or tomorrow, with examples.

[Sanctaphrax]

Pet And Ally Rules, version two or three or maybe four

Stunts can grant the assistance of other characters. These characters are NPCs that are under the partial control of the character who purchased them. They can't be controlled directly, but barring compels they obey all semi-reasonable orders/requests. They each have two aspects and a high concept. Their High Concepts always reference the character who purchased them.

Some of these characters have Quirks. A Quirk is an Aspect that controls the character's behaviour. If a Quirk conflicts with an order/request given by the character's purchaser, the Quirk dictates the character's behaviour.

These stunts can belong to any thematically appropriate ability. Resources could give a player a butler, while Survival could grant a pack of hunting dogs.

Dead or otherwise incapacitated characters can be replaced at milestones.

Stunts that give characters the assistance of other characters come in two types.

The first type grants the help of a single companion character with a skill pyramid which has a height 1 less than the associated skill of the stunt. Characters may spend Refresh to buy Powers and stunts for their companions. Each point of Refresh spent this way gives a companion approximately two points worth of abilities. Abilities that are equally good for a companion as for the primary character may cost as much as 1 Refresh for each points worth, while abilities which are clearly suboptimal may cost as little as 1 Refresh for every three points worth.

It is also possible to adjust the height of a companion's skill pyramid. Reducing the height of a companion's pyramid by one allows the free purchase of abilities that would normally cost the primary character 1 Refresh. Increasing the height of a companion's pyramid costs 1 Refresh for each point of height and is only possible if an amount of Refresh equal to the square of the desired number of pyramid height increases has already been invested in the companion's abilities.

If a companion has a Quirk, then it receives a number of extra Refresh points worth of abilities equal to the amount of Refresh spent on it.

The second type grants the help of a group of minion characters. One stunt gives a group of three identical minions, each with two skills and no Refresh. Additional minions may be added to the group, at a cost of one Refresh for every three minions. Characters may spend Refresh to improve their minions, at a cost of 1 Refresh for each points worth of Powers and stunts or each additional skill. Refresh spent to improve minions improves each minion equally. All minion skills have a rating equal three less than the associated skill of the stunt. Minions have no stress tracks and they never take consequences. If a minion would get extra stress boxes from Toughness or Endurance or some other effect, give them an equal amount of armour instead.

If a group of minions has a Quirk, then it receives three additional members or one points worth of Powers and stunts.



Aight, how does that look?

Regardless, here are a few examples:

[-1] Jeeves (Resources): Your faithful butler Jeeves is always there for you. Jeeves is a companion with the High Concept "(Character)'s Butler". He possesses a skill pyramid with a height one less than your Resources skill, with a focus on social skills and self-control.
[-1] Tweetie Bird (Survival): Your pet bird Tweetie comes in handy from time to time. Tweetie is a companion with the High Concept "(Character)'s Pet Bird". Tweetie has a Quirk: he is a bird, and his ability to understand and obey you is limited by his animal mind. He possesses a skill pyramid with a height two less than your Survival skill, and has the following Powers: Diminutive Size, Wings, Echoes Of The Beast. His skills are largely physical or perception-based.
[-5] Super Robot (Scholarship): You once built a killer robot, which serves and protects you loyally. The killer robot is a companion with the High Concept "(Character)'s Greatest Creation". The robot has a Quirk: it wants to kill anyone who harms you, and will try to do so no matter what you tell it to do. It possesses a skill pyramid with a height equal to your Scholarship skill, and has the following Powers: Hulking Size, Supernatural Strength, Supernatural Toughness, Potent Ranged Natural Weaponry, Semi-Animate, The Catch (Magnetism). Its skills have to do with combat and physical work.

[-2] Thug Squad (Contacts): You've got a few legbreakers to back you up when things get ugly. There are six thugs who each have the High Concept "(Character)'s Minion" who will do whatever you tell them. They each have Fists and Intimidation skills three less than your Contacts. They have no stress tracks.
[-3] Apprentices (Lore): Like most powerful wizards, you have students to teach. There are three teenagers who each have the High Concept "(Character)'s Apprentice" who will do almost anything you say. However, they have a Quirk: they will occasionally go out on their own to acquire knowledge or fight monsters...which rarely will end well for them. They each have Conviction, Discipline, and Lore skills three less than your Lore. They have no stress tracks, but they do receive mental armour from their Conviction. They all possess the Ritual Power for the same field.

[Tedronai]

Suggest you clarify at first mention of Quirks either that negative consequences thereof are treated as Compels for the player owning the stunt, or that they're treated as Compels against Debt (in which case they could still be bought out of, but wouldn't actually return a FP if accepted)

That's all I've got, for now.  Maybe more later.

[Praxidicae]

It is also possible to adjust the height of a companion's skill pyramid. Reducing the height of a companion's pyramid by one allows the free purchase of abilities that would normally cost the primary character 1 Refresh. Increasing the height of a companion's pyramid costs 1 Refresh for each point of height and is only possible if an amount of Refresh equal to the square of the desired number of pyramid height increases has already been invested in the companion's abilities.

Quite like this, as it makes excessive skill pyramid boosting prohibitively expensive, one worry that it might cause some flim-flamming in order to justify using high tier skills rather than using a lower level more justify-able one ("of course the related skill for my Wizard's Mercenary Hireling is his Discipline, he managed to impress him with his stolid and iron willed nature....").

As Tedronai said, I'd give more clarification on Quirks (I think there is a good description and examples somewhere earlier in this thread IIRC.

For the minions stunt, I'd suggest giving them a stress track of 2 each, that seems to be the standard from SotC and Kerberos, and although minions are meant to be squishy, I think that a stress track of 1 could make them too easy to take out. Additionally it might be worth allowing them a grouped 'Taken Out' consequence, but this would probably require some playtesting to ensure that it doesn't result in too much book-keeping.

Also on minions, are we allowing people to drop the number of minions they can have in order to give them stunts/powers, as mentioned earlier in the thread, or stick to buying them with refresh.

[Tedronai]

Something quite problematic just occurred to me:
How does one perform the cliche strangle-wire stealthy take-down (ie. grapple inflicting stress) on a minion if they have even the least bit of endurance under these rules?