Author Topic: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)  (Read 6803 times)

Offline computerking

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You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« on: December 15, 2011, 05:21:26 PM »
So the idea came up in another thread that with a magical maneuver you can place an aspect like "I'm a Bear" on yourself, as a sort of transformative effect.

I, of course, took it to a whole different place. If you use Mental magics to place an aspect like "I'm a Bear" on someone, does it count as Lawbreaking?

You won't be causing mental stress or consequences, yes, you would be tampering with someone's self-image, but it's in the most fragile (A character has 7 other aspects including High Concept to bring to bear against it) and transitory way (It probably won't last very long).

Then comes the question, "Why do it if it's so weak?"
Well, take the concept of "Magical Hypnotist." He should be able to induce mental illusions, Identity confusion, and even programmed responses to stimuli, through Mortal means. I can see these as different sorts of Maneuvers, temporarily combatting with the target's other Aspects with varying degrees of success (Which would explain why you cannot make someone do something through Hypnosis that they would never do normally).

With the power of Magic, doing such things should count as  the magical equivalent of a simple action, but at what point does it move into Lawbreaking? These Aspects don't violate free will; although you think you're someone/something else, you can still make choices. That's what I thought was the corrupting factor of the 4th Law. No mind reading is done, so the 3rd Law is out, too.

Any opinions?
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 05:26:14 PM »
I was just thinking about hypnosis before I read this.

I think it would skirt the laws like a sleep spell or a "legal" mind fog.  Wardens would get cranky, but I wouldn't award/apply/demand a l;awbreaker stunt for it.

Just my opinion mind ya.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 05:48:31 PM »
I doubt applying an aspect via maneuver would break the law, though long term thaumaturgy may cross a line.  However, compels / invokes for effect seem much more likely to cross the line than simply tagging it.  Compels do limit choice.  So it may well depend on how the aspect is used.
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Offline EldritchFire

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 06:03:28 PM »
I agree with UmbraLux. Lawbreaking is, IMO, more concerned with the long-term effects. Manoeuvres are short-duration effects. If you caused an aspect via stress/consequence/concession, that's another story. But short-term "these aren't the 'droids you're looking for" should be just fine.

As always, your table, your rules, so discuss with your group for final decision.

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Offline wyvern

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 06:39:35 PM »
Funny, I'd have said that "These aren't the droids you're looking for" is a classic example of a fourth law violation.  And the same would go for "you're a bear".  Then again, I probably wouldn't allow "you're a bear" as a mere maneuver, anyway - it feels much more like a taken out result.  Maybe "feeling a bit bear-ish"?

Offline devonapple

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 06:52:11 PM »
I'm fine with using Maneuvers to place Aspects like this - but I am inclined to rule at my table that such Maneuvers are Lawbreaking-adjacent.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 06:57:35 PM »
You break the law if you use magic to do it but not if you just use mundane hypnotism.

At least, that's my reading.

Offline computerking

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 07:42:47 PM »
You break the law if you use magic to do it but not if you just use mundane hypnotism.

At least, that's my reading.
What about using magic to induce the hypnotic state faster than normal(perhaps a "Suggestible" Aspect Maneuver), then proceeding normally?
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Offline wyvern

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 07:55:58 PM »
Hm.  A magical maneuver for "suggestible" would be borderline, I'd think.  The wardens might get all choppy if they found out, but I probably wouldn't assign a lawbreaker stunt for it.  Your mileage may vary, of course.

Offline sinker

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 10:07:01 PM »
My personal thought is that maneuvers (being transient) are very very dark grey, but not quite crossing the line. The next step would be to inflict mental stress/consequences and I think that's where the line gets crossed.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 10:58:54 PM »
The White Council's point of view shifted during the course of the books.  In Storm Front, Harry almost loses his head over casting a warden thinking that he cast a compulsion spell on Toot.

Later in the series you get dark wizards laughing at how ineffectual the White Council's "this is how you defend your mind" magic is.

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Offline Becq

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 05:01:12 AM »
This:
Funny, I'd have said that "These aren't the droids you're looking for" is a classic example of a fourth law violation.
and this:
You break the law if you use magic to do it but not if you just use mundane hypnotism.
Any use of magic (mundane hypnotism doesn't count) that changes a subjects thought patterns violates the Fourth Law.  As an example, consider the 'borderline' case of Molly, who merely maneuvered a "I don't want drugs" aspect on her friend to help her recover from an addiction that threatened to kill her.

I believe the way it was explained was that even 'innocuous' uses of such magic stain the soul; they increasingly make you the sort of person who uses magic to manipulate people's minds, which quickly leads to much blacker forms of magic (in other words, it gives you a 4th Lawbreaker stunt and makes you popular among Wardens).

Offline sinker

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 05:34:04 AM »
As an example, consider the 'borderline' case of Molly, who merely maneuvered a "I don't want drugs" aspect on her friend to help her recover from an addiction that threatened to kill her.

Except for the fact that a maneuver lasts one scene, at most an hour or so, and the aspect may be removed by a few seconds effort, even by the target themselves. Molly's actions had effects that lasted for weeks and months. At the very least she inflicted severe consequences on her friends, but more likely she inflicted extreme consequences or even took them out, and remade them as she desired.

I should point out that I'm only saying that your example is poor, not your argument as a whole.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:57:57 AM by sinker »

Offline Tallyrand

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2011, 05:48:08 AM »
Personally I would call this a clear 4th Law violation, the law doesn't mention duration only effect.  One clear way to point this out is that this use fits really well into a slippery slope argument.  In a fight you throw "I'm a bear" on a guy and it works, you make him ignore you so he can go eat some honey or something.  The next week you see the girl you've been mooning after for weeks so you figure, what the hell, and toss "I really like this guy" on her, it's only for dinner but you two have pleasant conversation and you have a nice night.  The next day you see her with her husband, she remembers your nice dinner but doesn't remember why she liked you but you figure if he wasn't in the way all would be good, you toss up "I Don't Love You Anymore" and ruin her marriage.  You can see how far these "only one scene' effects can go.

That being said, if you want to play a character who is seduced by power, this simply little spell would be a really interesting way to do it.

Offline computerking

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Re: You're a Bear! (Mental Maneuvers and Lawbreaking)
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2011, 01:55:54 PM »
Personally I would call this a clear 4th Law violation, the law doesn't mention duration only effect. 

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PS: %^#@ Orbius. This may or may not be relevant to the discussion, but whatever.