Rote Spells

[Quackerjack]

"Create air in my mouth to breathe"

Basically this, its a rip-off off the spell "the other Harry" used in the 5th book (or was it the 4th? The book with the other schools).

[toturi]

Basically this, its a rip-off off the spell "the other Harry" used in the 5th book (or was it the 4th? The book with the other schools).

Eh? I thought Potter used a potion.

[Becq]

Since Aquatic is a power, that implies to me that regardless of how you do it thematically, mechanically it would need to use the temporary power rules (I.E. pay fate points equal to the power's cost for each scene you have it). Also being a benevolent GM I'd probably allow the spell to last for the scene as they suggest you do with veils.

Note that this is not necessarily true.  After all, you could just as easily say that attack spells are basically the same as the Breath Weapon power, and that therefore any attempt to cast a fireball should use the temporary power rules.  Or that spells to open portals require the temporary use of Worldwalker.  Using the temporary powers rules is certainly one way, but there are other ways.  I don't know how I'd stat it as a spell, but I think I'd probably look into an Athletics roll substitution (to hold my breath) with lots of extended duration, or something aspect-based with lots of extended duration.  So maybe if a normal person could hold their breath for on the order of a minute, then you'd need four shifts up on the time chart to make that an hour.  So perhaps a complexity 7ish Biomancy that grants the aspect "I can breathe water!" for an hour, or that stretches a normal Athletics success from 1 minute of holding breath to an hour?  (Note that neither of these would grant the movement bonus from Aquatic, of course, just the ability to survive underwater for longer than normal.)

[sinker]

I think you misunderstand my statement. What I was saying is that the aquatic power 1)costs refresh and 2)is not explicitly a part of the spellcasting abilities (as both of your examples are). Since one person must spend refresh to gain the ability to breathe underwater (and as you pointed out, move quickly) it seems unfair to me that another person could simply maneuver for the same effect. If I chose not to take the aquatic power, but had "Underwater changeling" as one of my aspects would you allow me to gain the effects of the power without paying for it in fate points? Perhaps if I made the additional maneuver or declaration that gained me a tag? Again, someone else paid a refresh for that ability. Seems imbalanced to allow another person to use it without paying for it. As another example if I could gain another excuse to create the same effect (another power allowing me to maneuver, say breath weapon) would you still allow me to use the power without paying for it?

For that matter let's extend this a little further. The Aquatic power makes me immune to all drowning stress. So then can I maneuver to put the aspect "Fire-proof" on myself to be immune to all heat related stress? Normally that ability would cost between 2 and 8 refresh, and require a catch, but by the precedent you have already set (That I can use a maneuvered aspect to become immune to specific types of stress) I don't have to pay for it at all.

[Becq]

I understand what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree with you (which is not the same as agreeing, by the way: I'm just not entirely sure what the mechanics should be).

I will, however, offer a couple of thoughts on your arguments.  First of all, immunity against stress suffered from drowning is a far cry from immunity to all fire.  Drowning is typically a passive, environmental effect; the immunity granted by Aquatic doesn't cover "all water-related attacks".  So the nearest 'flame' equivalent would be an immunity to environmental heat stress, which might cover, for example, walking across a bed of coals and such (and certainly not fireballs).

Also, Aquatic is a -1 refresh power, which (a) protects against drowning stress, and (b) allows you to move as quickly in water as you could run on flat ground.  At best, the drowning portion is -1/2 refresh, so we aren't talking about a maneuver granting the equivalent of Mythic Toughness.  For the -1 refresh, someone buying the power is fully as effective underwater as he is on land, granting a significant advantage against others in that environment.  Permanently.  For no spellcasting stress, no Fate point expenditure, etc.  My suggested spell grants mere survival under water, and only temporarily, at the cost of some mental stress (admittedly not a huge cost).  It requires a Thaumaturgy (-2 or more refresh) and some preparation time to do.

But I'm open to looking into other ways of handling the situation.  So what do you think the mechanics of drowning should be?  That might hint at a better approach; perhaps armor vs. drowning or some such.

[sinker]

I have to apologize. I took a position and decided that it was right and everything else was wrong. Now that I look at it objectively I can see that there are probably a couple of ways to do this and each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Once could use the temporary power rules to gain the Aquatic power for a scene. This would have the advantage of giving you full use of that power (complete immunity to drowning and freedom of movement) but would cost a fate point, and depending on the GM may be less than accessible. For example if your GM requires that you take yourself out to do so, requiring all thirty shifts. I personally would cost the spell at 6 or 7 shifts total if the story deemed it necessary.

One could also set up a block against drowning. This would be cheaper and easier, but would not guarantee immunity, and I would imagine could be very bad when broken. An armor would work the same (I.E. is still a block) and would be more reliable (can't be broken) but less effective (may not prevent all stress).

To be honest I just don't like the maneuver idea, but I'll acknowledge it's validity. I've always felt that mechanically one aspect should at least be similar in power to another, and this seems like tossing that out the window. However since there is no rules anywhere for what exactly an invoke for effect can do, I have to admit that it's technically a feasible option.

And yes, immunity to fire was stretching the idea, but if you think about it, it all depends on context. If we're running a campaign that actually takes place in the water, then immunity to drowning stress will be much more powerful than immunity to fire.

[TheBiggs]

There's just one big problem with that proposition.
It's magic. Underwater.

A pretty decent way to kill yourself.

Also, a friend of mine had a rote that was some sort of "air tentacle" that could transport sound back to him. He could extend it a couple hundred meters, or all throughout a building, and listen in to stuff without being seen.

[sinker]

There's just one big problem with that proposition.
It's magic. Underwater.

A pretty decent way to kill yourself.

Just because the spell is countered does not mean the effect is. If one performed a transformation ritual to give one gills or similar, the gills would not disappear. Additionally water doesn't make magic impossible, merely difficult. If one planned for the effects of water (increasing the shifts in the spell to account for the water's threshold value) then one could be fine.

[TheBiggs]

Maybe, but we're talking about an Evocation Rote here.
It's not gonna have tons of shifts, nor will it be an actual thaumaturgic transformation.

[sinker]

I've had a twelve shift rote before. Depending on the water's value that may be enough. Additionally there's Thaumaturgy at evocation's methods, or someone working with a different evocation theme or really any number of reasons why it could work. You just have to be creative.

[computerking]

Just because the spell is countered does not mean the effect is. If one performed a transformation ritual to give one gills or similar, the gills would not disappear. Additionally water doesn't make magic impossible, merely difficult. If one planned for the effects of water (increasing the shifts in the spell to account for the water's threshold value) then one could be fine.

QFT.

Also, if the character is a Fomor Scion his magic might work better under water than on dry land...

[ARedthorn]

I've always had a question regarding the issues with running water... namely, it seems to me everyone on the forum treats all water as grounding magic... is this the standard, accepted interpretation, or are we forgetting the 'running' part?

My interpretation is (like how water reacts to radiation) it acts as a fantastic medium for magic (almost too good!), absorbing it remarkably well... and if it's running water, then strips it away from you by carrying it away.

So still water, say, a lake (a handful of weak currents notwithstanding) would be less of a problem for a caster than a running firehose (even though the firehose is putting out less water, it's much faster-moving, and carries the magical energy away much better). Is that interpretation just me?

[toturi]

I've always had a question regarding the issues with running water... namely, it seems to me everyone on the forum treats all water as grounding magic... is this the standard, accepted interpretation, or are we forgetting the 'running' part?

My interpretation is (like how water reacts to radiation) it acts as a fantastic medium for magic (almost too good!), absorbing it remarkably well... and if it's running water, then strips it away from you by carrying it away.

So still water, say, a lake (a handful of weak currents notwithstanding) would be less of a problem for a caster than a running firehose (even though the firehose is putting out less water, it's much faster-moving, and carries the magical energy away much better). Is that interpretation just me?

I have treated "running water grounding out magic energies" as running water grounding out "normal" magics. A blast water doesn't short itself out. Aquatic magic (I'd go so far as it include Water-element magics) either likes water or is at least indifferent to it.

[UmbraLux]

I've always had a question regarding the issues with running water... namely, it seems to me everyone on the forum treats all water as grounding magic... is this the standard, accepted interpretation, or are we forgetting the 'running' part?

When it's important to the story, it's an aspect.  Potentially compelled to stop casting or invoked to help resist a spell but, either way, it's not really going to ground something out. 

[Cyberchihuahua]

In SF, Harry was out on the water standing on a reef. It made his magic more difficult to summon, but not impossible.