Breath Weapon uses what Skill now?

[UmbraLux]

-Defensive Weaponry is good as is. It essentially transplants the entire Fists skill into Weapons. Well worth 1 refresh.

From your initial writeup, it appears to allow a choice of skill (or affect all three) in the base power.  And the only difference I see between the defense trappings in Fists vs Weapons is Fists requires a narrative justification.  Since the natural weaponry is probably going to give you that just by existing, what are you gaining by spending a refresh on Defensive Weaponry?

PPS: I pretty much hate Becq's rewrite, for a number of reasons. The main one is that it lets you attack and defend unarmed with any combat skill at weapon 2 in its base version, making anyone who takes the base version with Fists into a moron. There are a few other reasons, but they are secondary.

Not really sure how this differs from your version or how using Fists is any less effective than other skills.  Can you elucidate?

[Sanctaphrax]

The base power as I wrote it restricts you to using Fists.

By taking Defensive Weaponry you gain the ability to attack and defend unarmed with Weapons. In other words, you combine Fists and Weapons into one skill.

All Fists is good for is unarmed attacks and defenses. If you can attack and defend unarmed with a skill, then that skill has all trappings of Fists.

As such, Becq's version doesn't make you choose between Fists and Guns and Weapons. It makes you choose between Fists and Fists+Guns and Fists+Weapons. Obviously, plain old Fists is the sucker choice in that set.

[Tedronai]

All else being equal, what benefit is actually gained by using a skill other than Fists for Natural Weaponry that is worth 1 refresh as a power?
Assume that the weapon in any case has easy narrative justification to be used defensively, such that one could, for instance, defend against any large conventional melee weapon using the Fists skill, as that skill allows.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you choose Guns for your natural weapon, you can attack and defend unarmed with your Guns skill.

Meanwhile, you can also use a real gun with your Guns skill.

If you choose Fists for your natural weapon, you can attack and defend unarmed with your Fists skill.

But you can't use a gun with your Fists skill.

So choosing Guns is better in every possible situation.

Unless for some reason you want to attack unarmed without using your natural weapon.

But there's no reason to do that.

This really isn't complicated.

[Sanctaphrax]

Preliminary rewrite. Having a built-in grenade launcher now only costs 4 refresh.

I'd like to add a melee zone-attack option, but I'm not sure how to word it.

By the current wording, zone attacks are as dangerous to the user as to anyone else if used on the user's zone.

If I add the melee zone-attack option, I'll probably let people remove that drawback in exchange for 1 refresh. And maybe I'll let them swap it for a -2 penalty when zone-attacking or losing the ability to make single-target attacks.

NATURAL WEAPONRY [-1]
Description: Your body contains or can produce some kind of weapon or attack.
Note: You have to pick one type of weapon (eg. fire breath, metal claws, three-foot tusks) when you take this power.
Skills Affected: Fists, Weapons, Guns
Effects:
Natural Weaponry. Your body contains a weapon with a rating of 2. This weapon has a no range, is not capable of spray attacks, benefits from Strength powers, and is wielded with the Fists skill.
Potent Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a rating of 4.
Defensive Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon may be wielded with Weapons and used with the defense trapping of that skill.
Ranged Weaponry [-1]. Your natural weapon has a range of three zone and is capable of spray attacks. It may be wielded with the Fists, Weapons, or Guns skill. It cannot be used with the defense trapping of Weapons.
Area Weaponry [-1]. (Requires Ranged Weaponry) Your natural weapon may be used to make zonewide attacks.

[Tedronai]

But there's no reason to do that.

The same reason any supernatural entity would choose to use a mundane attack method over a superior supernatural one:
Maintaining a pretense of mortality.

Though I'd like to see the argument concluding that a supernatural power is overpowered for using the same skill as a superior mundane attack method.

This really isn't complicated.

Let's keep the veiled personal attacks to a minimum, shall we?

[Sanctaphrax]

Wasn't a personal attack. Just tactlessness, that's all. Sorry if it was impolite.

The problem isn't that Becq's rewrite is overpowered (although it might be) it's that it gives you a false choice. If you're going to have people choose between three skills, you shouldn't make one of the choices strictly worse. That amounts to a mechanical booby trap.

And you don't actually have to not use your natural weapon for the sake of discretion. You have control over the aesthetics of your own powers. So if you want your Natural Weaponry to be an normal-looking set of human fists, you can have that.

[Tedronai]

The problem isn't that Becq's rewrite is overpowered (although it might be) it's that it gives you a false choice. If you're going to have people choose between three skills, you shouldn't make one of the choices strictly worse. That amounts to a mechanical booby trap.

Barring compels rendering you without your weapon of choice or powers that grant bonuses specific to fists, the skill itself is already a 'mechanical booby trap'.

And you don't actually have to not use your natural weapon for the sake of discretion. You have control over the aesthetics of your own powers. So if you want your Natural Weaponry to be an normal-looking set of human fists, you can have that.

Would you be satisfied on that point by explicitly requiring that the skill chosen must generally reflect the nature of the weapon? (I thought that implicit in the 'approved by table' comment, but perhaps I was wrong)
Eye-lasers not being particularly well represented by Fists, and fists that hit like sledgehammers not being particularly well represented by guns.

[Sanctaphrax]

I disagree about Fists. But this is not the place for that debate.

We can at least agree that we shouldn't make Fists worse, right?

And as for the "approved by the table" requirement and the idea that weapons should be assigned to skills by type;

-everything must be approved by the table anyway. So that sentence is basically meaningless.

-I really prefer my mechanics rigorous.

-I can't imagine a melee weapon that would make sense with Guns.

-I don't think it would solve the problem. A magical ability to always have a club on hand is plenty discreet and quite suitable for Weapons. I suppose I could word things so that only Fists has the ability to be discreet, but I'd rather not. It'd involve too much aesthetic restriction for my tastes.

So...yeah. I like Defensive Weaponry as it is.

What do you have against it, anyway?

[UmbraLux]

So...yeah. I like Defensive Weaponry as it is.

What do you have against it, anyway?

It's a choice between describing things in a way which make your 'natural weapon' effective and spending a point of refresh.  I suspect most will choose to spend the refresh on something else.

Somewhat ironically, it's a case where 'fluff' affects the mechanics by RAW.   

[Sanctaphrax]

Wait, what?

How could clever description duplicate the effect of Defensive Weaponry?

[ways and means]

I think he means that with certain fluff it makes sense for a natural weapon to be wield-able with weapons automatically for example if you can create swords out of your body even though you can create the weapon out of your body (either liquid terminator style or wolverine style) it makes sense you could wield it with weapons (it being a weapon) and that you could parry with it.

[Sanctaphrax]

No.

No.

NO.

NO.

If you want to make a Weapons weapon with this power, buy the Defensive Weaponry upgrade. That's how it works.

That's what the text of the power says.

The base power can only give you Fists weapons. It says so clearly. Criticizing Defensive Weaponry on the basis of a ruling to the contrary is like giving a guy with Wings a weapon 2 Fists attack for free because his wings are sharp, then complaining that Claws is useless when you can just get Wings.

[UmbraLux]

How could clever description duplicate the effect of Defensive Weaponry?

It's in the Close-Combat Defense trapping of Fists.  Specifically, "Fists may be rolled as a defense...representing the ability to block or dodge an opponent’s attacks. It can’t be used as a defense when the weapon arguably has a significant reach advantage (swords, staves, and guns), unless you can justify it...As a rule, Fists can usually be justified as a defense against attacks that come from the same zone as you and rarely against attacks from outside that zone."

The only significant difference between the Fists defense trapping and the Weapons defense trapping is that need to justify it for reach weapons.  The weapon apparently counts as justification enough (which makes sense) for the Weapons skill. 

So yes, all it takes is a table accepted description to match the mechanical effects of Fists' defense with Weapons' defense.

[Tedronai]

No.

No.

NO.

NO.

If you want to make a Weapons weapon with this power, buy the Defensive Weaponry upgrade. That's how it works.

That's what the text of the power says.

The base power can only give you Fists weapons. It says so clearly.

The debate here is not whether that restriction exists (in your personal homebrewed power), but whether it is appropriate (for a wider audience).

Criticizing Defensive Weaponry on the basis of a ruling to the contrary is like giving a guy with Wings a weapon 2 Fists attack for free because his wings are sharp, then complaining that Claws is useless when you can just get Wings.

Who said anything about handing out weapon values for natural weapons for free?