Embassies and Thresholds

[Silverblaze]

Rivers serve as thresholds.  Night and Day .  Seasons.  Etc.

I think an embassy could very well have a threshold.

Marvel Comics spoilers ahead:

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I mean, they hold enough magical significance in Marvel Comics that Captain Britain ( gets powers from Excalibur has no powers off the British isles) has powers anywhere britain claims is their soil.  Their embassies count for him... really, it's canon..it happened once.

Sounds pretty magical to me.

[Todjaeger]

Sorry, but the reason why I keep harping on all buildings (and rivers, circles, enclosing walls/fences, etc) having a Threshold isn't because going into a public building like a store would normally cause a wizard or supernatural create to lose power.  They wouldn't, at least normally, because the location would have a Threshold: 0, it's there, but so weak as to have no discernible effect.  There is actually canon for this from Ghost Story

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When Harry follows Fitz into Nick Christian's office & sleeping area at the Ragged Angels Detective Agency, Harry comments that there is a Threshold there, but so weak as to require little effort for Harry to cross.

 

Now, if a Supernatural nasty were to enter and attack people in a grocery store while Michael, Charity and Father Forthill were all there shopping for a church picnic...  Then the nasty would absolutely run into a Threshold: 6, which would immediately make things difficult for the nasty.

-Cheers

[Richard_Chilton]

Rivers serve as thresholds.  Night and Day .  Seasons.  Etc.

Serve as, or are?

One of the problems is that Harry is often imprecise with terms.  Many different things get the same label.  That's one of the problems with "wards" - Harry uses it to describe virtually any defensive magic.  He has a ward on his house (linked to his threshold) and "wards" woven into his duster.  Same word, same intent behind the magic (defense), but totally different spells.

Rivers block supernatural thing.  Night and Day does terrible things to unprotected spirits.  People living in a house form a protective barrier for the house.  Holy ground? A threshold effect.

But we know that the "holy ground" and "people living somewhere" isn't the same kind of threshold (or at least it doesn't seem to be).  Maybe my problem is that I'm focusing too much on "people living somewhere" and not the other variants that produce a similar effect.

That said, I still don't think that an embassy produces a threshold - any more than the ballpark where millions have cheered (focusing their emotional energy) has one.  If non-homes have thresholds then it follows that a place where that much emotion energy, that much near religious fervor, would have one.  It seems much more likely than an embassy having one - yet the series shows that anyone can walk into the ballpark.

Richard

[sinker]

What you think about the fences around graveyards, Richard?

[devonapple]

I think the arguments for embassies having or not having thresholds are both valid. And while we might be able to elicit a WoJ about the subject, I don't know that we'd ever get a canonical guide, based on my impression of the series' scope.

"Dresden Files", as a setting, appears to be simultaneously vast and tightly focused in scale.

In temporal politics, it feels tightly focused on Chicago, and other locations serve as brief vacations from Chicago.

In the supernatural world, the setting touches almost EVERYTHING, from individual ghost demesnes, all the way to the Courts of the Fairy Queens, then to the Outer Gates (with threats from Beyond). Sure, Downbelow remains referenced but unvisited, but I have a feeling that if Harry wanted to bust down the doors of Hell, he wouldn't need much of a map to do so.

So embassies and international politics rests between those two worlds, a distant undercurrent which may possibly complicate the situation in Chicago, but it would need a series of coincidences to really come into play: perhaps Marcone has dealings with a resident of another country, [insert supernatural faction] involves itself in thwarting his dealings, innocent people who aren't clued-in get the bright idea to flee to their embassy, hilarity ensues as Harry sarcastically observes how powerful (or weak) such a place's threshold might be against [insert supernatural faction].

Which brings us back to my main advice, which echoes the inherent advice running through most of the DFRPG: the embassy's threshold (and level of default supernatural preparation) should be as strong or weak as the plot demands.

[Richard_Chilton]

What you think about the fences around graveyards, Richard?

Yet another kind of threshold - one that only effects ghosts.  Maybe spirits but I'm betting only ghosts.

When Harry met a Black Court Vampire beside his grave neither one of them was worried about an invitation.  Harry's powers were at full (unlike when he entered an apartment uninvited in White Night) and the Vampire didn't need an invitation to enter.  If that had been a "people live here" threshold then things would have been vastly different at that meeting.

No, now that I think about it, it doesn't affect spirits.  In Grave Peril a spirit that looked like Harry took someone to a graveyard.  Magic was tossed around.  A Fae wandered in.  No signs that anyone needed an invite.

More recently (GS Spoiler)

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Jim has hinted that Demonreach projected itself into the cemetery and was the extremely powerful thing that had problems communicating with Harry.

which wouldn't have worked with a threshold that effects spirits.

My take is that we are talking about different types of "thresholds".  I might be wrong about this, but this is how I see them broken down:
"Home" thresholds that prevent nasties from entering, degrade spells that cross them, and strip away powers from wizards who enter; can be invited through one.
"Dawn/sundown" thresholds that destroy vulnerable spirits and degrade spells but has no effect on wizards; no invitation attached to this.
"Graveyard" thresholds that keep ghosts either in or out; no invitation (other than an opening in the wall) applies.
"Holy ground" thresholds that keep nasties out but have never seemed to effect Harry's magic (even when he was brought in unconscious); invitation is debatable.
"Run water" thresholds that keep nasties out, degrade spells that cross them, but a wizard wading through a stream doesn't leave his power behind; no invitation applies.
"Magic circle" threshold that keep nasties out (or in) and are broken if someone with freewill passes through them or throws something through them, or if the circle is damaged either by someone with freewill or the environment.

Then there's:
"Created boundaries" like runes carved into things that can be used to anchor a ward.
"Natural boundaries" that can be used to anchor and define a veil.

Here's hoping that I've clarified my views on this topic.

Richard

[sinker]

Makes sense, and I agree with you primarily. What do you think of this? I emphasized the part I'm particularly curious about.

There are al­ways fences around ceme­ter­ies. Al­ways, whether stone or brick or chain-​link. It's one of those un­writ­ten things that peo­ple don't re­al­ly no­tice, they just do it by re­flex. Any kind of wall is a bar­ri­er in more than mere­ly a phys­ical sense. Lots of things are more than what they seem in a pure­ly phys­ical sense.

Walls keep things out. Walls around ceme­ter­ies keep things in.

[Richard_Chilton]

Makes sense, and I agree with you primarily. What do you think of this? I emphasized the part I'm particularly curious about.

The best symbol for something is the thing itself.  Ghosts might move through normal walls but since the wall is a symbol for a barrier (in that it's actually a physical barrier) cemetery walls have become a symbolic barrier for ghosts. 

Did the faith that walls would keep things in come first, or did people notice that the walls kept ghosts away? Shrug.  It's hard to say just how much faith and belief turn into magic but a quick google search found that walls have been around burial ground since ancient times.  And not only in western culture - http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shandong/qufu/forest.htm talks about the walls around the Cemetery of Confucius.  On the other hand, Harry is always coming up with new things.

When it comes to him telling people "this isn't what it seems to be" there are times when he's a bit like Tom Baker's Doctor Who explaining something to a companion.  He uses a similar wording in Summer Knight about the entrance to the secret world under Chicago.  Things being more than what they seem is constant theme in the books.   I mean, would you think of looking for a Loa where he found one? I wouldn't.

"Walls keep things out. Walls around ceme­ter­ies keep things in."
- this can be read as "Walls of a house have a threshold to keep things out.  Walls around a ceme­ter­y have a different sort of threshold - one to keep ghosts in".

Could the walls of a country's embassy be used to shelter the spirits native to the that country? Maybe - but I don't see them as keeping ghosts out, blocking spells, or forcing a wizard to leave his power outside.

Richard

[SunlessNick]

Well, my reasoning is that there's a ton of focus on the barrier surounding an embassy, both symbolic, legal, and practical everyday focus.  Moreso than any other non-home I can think of.  I figure that should have some metaphysical weight to it.  -  zenten

My rough guide for Thresholds is that a place can get one if "We'll be safe once we get to the..." sounds emotionally sensible without needing any context.  Homes and places of worship fit that idea - it's why I also think inns, especially old rural roadside ones, should have them - but conversely, with "we'll be safe once we get to the warehouse/greengrocer/car park/war memorial" the immediate reaction is why those places would be safe.

A graveyard, though is almost the opposite - emotionally, it's a place of safety for the dead, so the analogy breaks down there.

I suppose an embassy could be such a place for people of its nationality, which is a lot of people even for the smallest country.  And culturally, there is a lot of investment in the idea that embassies should be respected ground.  I still don't they have Thresholds, but I guess the idea does have more merit than a national border would.

[sinker]

@Richard: That is where we differ then. To me it seems like in that statement that Harry is talking about our belief becoming metaphysical force. We believe that walls prevent things from moving between those spaces, and so metaphysically they do to some extent. We believe that a wall or a fence separates two spaces, and so metaphysically it does to some extent.

Now imagine a space that seems closed to us (and by us I mean the entire population of the world feels this way to some extent). It seems like a barrier that we can't cross. We are not welcome on the other side. This is the way that national borders are viewed by most, and even if they don't feel that way they still see it as a fence, something that separates and prevents entry, a border. Imagine the metaphysical weight behind an entire planet viewing these lines as something of importance. I would think that it might prevent beings of the metaphysical side and energy of that inclination from getting through.

[Richard_Chilton]

That is where we differ.  To me city lines, county lines, state lines, and the lines on the map that separate countries can be boundaries but not a threshold in the same way an occupied house is a threshold.

There is nothing in any of the books that give a definitive answer - so let's just agree that we have different views on the matter.

Richard

[sinker]

To me city lines, county lines, state lines, and the lines on the map that separate countries can be boundaries but not a threshold in the same way an occupied house is a threshold.

I can actually agree with this. It wouldn't be a threshold in the same way. I think it would serve as a barrier to entry. It would not suppress supernatural beings once they were inside.

[Richard_Chilton]

Again, we differ.

I don't see ghosts stopping at a city line - unless that ghost is tied to the city.  I don't see demons having a problem crossing county lines.  I could see a very few spirits being unable to do something like that but more because they were a certain type of spirit than anything to do with something inherent in the line.  In fact I could see more spirits having problems passing though a rural / urban boundary than spirits having problems crossing boundaries that were lines on a map.

But I could be wrong about that and I can see where you're coming from.  Which means that we have probably hit "agree to disagree" territory.

Richard

[sinker]

I don't see ghosts stopping at a city line - unless that ghost is tied to the city.  I don't see demons having a problem crossing county lines.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I don't see most of those lines being that way. We don't view those lines as barriers. We cross those lines all the time with no problem. City, county, even state/province lines have little more than a sign marking them. National boundaries are different though. They often have fences, checkpoints, and guards. They can require passports, searches and explanations.

[Richard_Chilton]

Those lines are (in many ways) barriers - especially state lines.

How many movies have been filmed where someone has to get across the "city/county/state line" to avoid local law enforcement?

City and county lines can have a great deal to do with the local education system as well as the health care people receive.

But when it comes to state lines they can really, really matter.  Dry state/wet state.  Blue state/Red state/Swing state.  And don't forget that for most of the 20th century it was against the law to take a woman across a state line "for an immoral purpose" - something that could turn a drive in the country into a federal crime.

As for boarders, I don't seem them as their own class of barrier.  Would a nature spirit care about what country it was it? Does it matter to Bob that he is no longer in France?

They often have fences, checkpoints, and guards. They can require passports, searches and explanations.

So do most airports.

I can see where you're coming from - that the power of belief can make things happen.  The power of the "we are we and they are they" mindset powering a threshold like effect.

I just don't agree with you on this.  Partly because of the temporary natures of embassies.  For example, in 1989 Canada opened a new embassy in Washington DC.  Did it immediately receive a 'threshold'? And the old embassy, the one at the house that Clarence Moore built, did it immediately lose a 'threshold'? How about the Canadian consulate in LA - would that get a threshold? Did it go up or down then a former PM was appointed Consulate-General?

I can see symbols being important, being tapped by things or having someone wield their power, but I just can't see an artificial barrier (like a line on the map) having much to do with a family feeling safe, holy ground, or being an accepted symbol to stop certain classes of spirits (graveyard fence).

Yes, embassies can be important, but so can the X Building (every city has named buildings that are symbols), the courthouse (symbol for justice), the police station (symbol of law or corruption), almost any school (symbol of learning), and countless other buildings.  In my view an embassy doesn't have a 'threshold effect' any more than any of these other symbolic building.

Richard