Another question about defensive evocation

[PolaroidNinja]

Hey guys, I'm about to start running a regular game soon, and I've been reading everything I possibly could about the game to learn.

My group and I played through the "Evil Acts" case file, and after we were all done I was left with a few questions.

Most of these I figured out by reading the rules and all the great resources on these forums and the blogs in the community. But one of the questions I have still that I can't seem to wrap my head around is about defensive evocation.

I just can't see why anyone would bother with defensive spells. Specifically, shields.

A shield is described in the rules as a evocation based block against damage, and as far as I can tell it is generally not a good idea to throw up a shield that can actually deflect bullets (with any sort of duration) than it would be to just use your magic to take out a gunner and then dodge the other shots as best as you can.

And in magic on magic combat, it seems almost always better to use maneuvers to set yourself up for a defense if you care to defend at all - in that case it almost always seems best to just fire first. To me this doesn't really seem to fit the feel of the novels - Harry uses his shield very often.

Am I understanding this correctly? Or am I missing something?

[crusher_bob]

A common houserule is to allow 'reactive' defensive evocations, that don't take an action to bring up.  This allows the evocator to both attack and defend with magic in the same turn, but at the cost of running through even more stress.

Another option is to generate a powerful shield, and then use your next action to 'prolong' the shield (YS 259), so that it wil then last for considerably longer.

[computerking]

Third option: Thaumaturgy. With it you can create a shield that both comes up reflexively and lasts for a while (Base duration would be a scene/15 minutes). You can set it to be reflexive with 2 extra complexity, and your nerve is the only thing limiting its power. It's something you might only want to do when you know you're heading into heavy battle that day.

Fourth Option: Enchanted Items. You can carry a Block on a stick, so to speak, which will come up reflexively, and you can add duration to it after. Also, you can increase its frequency, so you can wait until its last activation to extend it.

[UmbraLux]

I just can't see why anyone would bother with defensive spells. Specifically, shields.

The biggest single reason to use them is for groups / zones.  You can cover yourself and all your friends for the price of 2 shifts.  A second reason to use them is Armor - a 6 point/shift block that may get broken immediately may not be as good as a 3 point / 6 shift armor (block) which doesn't go away.  Though which is better tends to depend on the type of incoming attacks.  Which brings us to reason three...a 6 shift block may make you (and possibly your entire group) essentially immune to a group of minor attacks.  If there are a hundred rats attacking, I'll take the block over trying to dodge.    Finally, a fourth reason to use blocks is simply being lousy at dodging. 

Am I understanding this correctly? Or am I missing something?

Basically it's situational.  Unless you allow the reactive blocks CB mentioned you're probably not going to get them used as much as Harry does.  But depending on the situation, they can be far better than your alternatives. 

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Bit of a caveat here on reactive blocks.  They're unbelievably game-changing and I'm pretty sure crusher_bob doesn't have a large or accurate enough sample to claim they're commonly house-rule'd in.

Now, evo blocks. If you're supposed to be the heavy artillery of your group, don't use defensive magic.  If you have plenty of other heavy hitters, spec defensive and make them nearly unkillable.

[NicholasQuinn]

Bit of a caveat here on reactive blocks.  They're unbelievably game-changing and I'm pretty sure crusher_bob doesn't have a large or accurate enough sample to claim they're commonly house-rule'd in.

Perhaps, however there is precedent for such a house rule in the books. A sidebar in Your Story, suggests the idea. I've used them, limiting it to rotes, as it makes themantic sense to me, and in all honesty I don't find them too unbalanced; No more so than enchanted items, high speed powers and the like; but then I guess it depends on how powerful players make their casters.
IMO, the speed at which a Wizard will burn through mental stress is enough of a balance, and a better representation of the limitations of magic.

Now, evo blocks. If you're supposed to be the heavy artillery of your group, don't use defensive magic.  If you have plenty of other heavy hitters, spec defensive and make them nearly unkillable.

This I agree with. However I will add magic does, in great part, come down to a casters character. Not every Wizard will be suited to being 'heavy artillery'; think Molly.

[sinker]

In order to get your money's worth on a block you really have to put some power into it. A five shift block is going to be overcome by someone with good skills making a decent roll (even worse if their skills are great). Now an eight or ten shift block? That's literally going to take some fate points to get past. I had a chest deep character that was capable of blocks of that magnitude (she took a some backlash, but that was kinda part of the character concept) on a regular basis and it made the GM have to work that much harder. An eight shift block, extended to all allies, and prolonged for six or seven exchanges can be real effective.

[Sanctaphrax]

They're pretty good for protecting a group and for pre-fight preparation. Remember to crank power as high as possible and to get a decent duration. Prolonging evocations are good for this.

Reflexive blocks change the game by making wizards not glass cannons without Crafting.

Normally, a fight between two serious wizards is basically rocket launcher tag. This changes that. And it's a significant power boost to pure evokers.

[sinker]

Third option: Thaumaturgy. With it you can create a shield that both comes up reflexively and lasts for a while (Base duration would be a scene/15 minutes). You can set it to be reflexive with 2 extra complexity, and your nerve is the only thing limiting its power. It's something you might only want to do when you know you're heading into heavy battle that day.

I'm not sure about this. To be purely technical I don't think thaumaturgy is capable of blocks outside of wards, and wards require a threshold.

[Tedronai]

I'm not sure about this. To be purely technical I don't think thaumaturgy is capable of blocks outside of wards, and wards require a threshold.

It is, admittedly, a contentious issue, far from clear in the RAW.

[PolaroidNinja]

Okay, so it sounds like without a house rule (ie reflexive evocation blocks) evo blocks are really more the prominence of a planned thing.

Prolonging the sheild on the second exchange is a great bit of info I had not seen - and that does make them a bit better as you can focus all your efforts into getting a really powerful shield up on the first exchange then layer on some additional time the second exchange before moving in to attack.

I may run the houserule by my players to see what they think, but I think we'll run a few sessions without it either way so we can fully experience the rules as intended before we change anything.

Thanks for all the quick advice!

[ARedthorn]

Depends, too, on how you use it... with the way blocks work (ie, you can block anything- a shield spell is simply a block vs damage centered on yourself)... instead of setting up a block vs incoming damage on yourself, you could aggressively set one up on a given enemy. They'd get an initial chance to dodge your spell, but instead of it doing damage, they find themselves in a bubble of force that hinders them attacking anyone.
Given enough power, it's a quick, effective, non-lethal way to neutralize a single enemy for a round (assuming they can't overcome it), then extend it the following round if need be.

[computerking]

To be purely technical I don't think thaumaturgy is capable of blocks outside of wards, and wards require a threshold.

But Thaumaturgy is capable of recreating any evocation effect, which should include Blocks that aren't Wards.

[ARedthorn]

Truthfully, I think Wards require a threshold because they aren't strictly speaking blocks... or rather, aren't just Blocks. They're Blocks with benefits... and it's important that those benefits be limited in some way to rebalance them.

For just a straight up block- like Harry's shield- I see no reason it couldn't be done with Thaum... and done very well. Scary well. I'd be careful with it, in fact... since it conceivably sets up massive, high-quality defenses that just DON'T go away... potentially ever.
Course, that's not any worse than thaumaturgy already is, given the same investment in spell-casting effort.

I'd want to limit it in some way, just to make sure casters don't go around saying they backstoried a Damage Block:18 or Armor:9 for the rest of their life or something.

[sinker]

Actually if you read the thaumaturgy section every time it mentions blocks it does so in the context of wards. It never mentions a non-ward block, even in the "What can you do with it" section. That's the last I'll say on that though, cause we're kinda getting off track.