Of Gods and Demons: A question about high-refresh games

[JayTee]

A game type I've been kicking around in my head for a while now is where the characters are not the Wizards and True Believers and Mortals, but Godlike entities like Mab and Odin, He Who Walks Behind and The Fallen in their true form.

The catch is that you would be playing these character before they were the heads of their respective organizations. Mab would still be the Winter Lady as opposed to the Winter Queen, Odin would still be little more than the Son of Bor, He Who Walks Behind and The Fallen would not have the political or mystical clout that they currently enjoy.

Players would engage in celestial political maneuvers and cosmic battles for the fate of entire geographic locations, if not the whole of the Mortal World, on a regular basis. The problem is that in order to realistically represent such characters, the starting refresh level would likely have to be around 15 or so. I am only partially familiar with the system, having only recently started playing after long last, so I am unsure of how a high-refresh level game would affect things.

Alternately, instead of starting at a high refresh I start things out at Submerged, and have it so that a "Good" Roll is Good by the standards of godly entities, rather than mortals.

So, my question is twofold:

First, does a high-refresh level affect gameplay in a significant way beyond the obvious fact that you have access to higher levels of power?

Second, would simply declaring that the power level is "Good by Godly standards" feel to you, the players, like you were playing a high powered entity? Or would you need something more than that?

[Sanctaphrax]

Going by personal experience from GMing an 18 refresh game:

-15 refresh would not be nearly enough for godlings. My characters don't feel godlike at all.
-Gameplay doesn't really change that much. It's just...bigger. There are more mooks running around, but that's not a big change.
-The skill cap is very important.

"Good by Godly standards" sounds like a bad idea. If you get into a swordfight with a Great mortal fencer, what happens? Do you win instantly?

And what rituals can you do with a godly base complexity of 5?

PS: If you want to see the 18 refresh game I mentioned, it's on the PbP boards. It's called Enduring The Apocalypse.

[JayTee]

-15 refresh would not be nearly enough for godlings. My characters don't feel godlike at all.

I was going by Maeve's and Lilly's writeup, both of them are around 14-15 refresh. Since this game would feature Mab as the Winter Lady and what amounts to a young Odin, I thought this would be a good starting point.

"Good by Godly standards" sounds like a bad idea. If you get into a swordfight with a Great mortal fencer, what happens? Do you win instantly?

I actually hadn't planned to include Mortals at all, this would have been a wholly cosmic affair.

And what rituals can you do with a godly base complexity of 5?

I would need to brush up on the magic section before answering this question with any reasonable degree of intelligence, so I'll get back to you when I've had a few hours to read it over and better understand it.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Doesn't really work.  DFRPG has pretty much all gods and godlike entities as negative refresh characters lacking free will.  Basically meaning you could play them but you could never buy off a compel, at least to your seven core aspects.

If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it.  It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict.  You can't feel awesomely powerful unless you can kick the crap out of most comers but you can't stay interested unless there is real threat and challenge every session.

[JayTee]

If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it.

This is more or less what I had planned, although I would be justifying it with the whole "young godling" schtick.

It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict.

So there's no possible way to reconcile the two? No way to mix a social conflict who's results will have far-reaching effects and a physical conflict vs mythical assassins and whatnot?

[ways and means]

Personally I would recommend the Fairy Wars where everything was Epic (according to Bob) or another setting where you can scale everything up high enough so that there are challenges for your players. If everything is scaled rightly enough I don't think you  should have any problem mixing social and physical combat.

[JayTee]

Personally I would recommend the Fairy Wars where everything was Epic (according to Bob)

Ideally I would not only include this, but also the Ragnarok wars (Odin mentions the Jotunns having been defeated, something that only happens during Ragnarok in Norse mythology), as well as a host of other mythological events.

[Silverblaze]

Doesn't really work.  DFRPG has pretty much all gods and godlike entities as negative refresh characters lacking free will.  Basically meaning you could play them but you could never buy off a compel, at least to your seven core aspects.

If you don't mind ignoring that bit of RAW and canon, you could probably make a game of it.  It's going to end up one of two ways though: either a largescale chess match that would feel powerful but lacking direct action or scaled up PCs vs scaled up NPCs that wouldn't feel any more powerful but would have plenty of direct conflict.  You can't feel awesomely powerful unless you can kick the crap out of most comers but you can't stay interested unless there is real threat and challenge every session.

This.

Either that or its just playing a normal game with bigger numbers.  Might as well use the smaller numbers.

If you don't use mortals, Gods can't exist. (no believers)  having no mortals to manipulate and pander to or torment takes away the fun of godhood.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

So there's no possible way to reconcile the two? No way to mix a social conflict who's results will have far-reaching effects and a physical conflict vs mythical assassins and whatnot?

By amping up PC power?  No.  It's all going to be down to you and your storytelling skills as GM.  The only thing they're going to feel godlike against just by their power level are things that offer no challenge, like mortals.

[JayTee]

Hm. Well I asked my questions and I got my answers, even if they were answers I didn't like. But they were honest, helpful answers by people who know way more about this game than I do, so whether I like them or not is irrelevant.

It seems that if I ever want to have this game happen, three things need to get done first: 1) I need to develop my GMing and story telling skills. 2) I need to become much more familiar with the system, and 3) I simply need more flat out experience.

Thank you for your feedback everyone!

[Sanctaphrax]

There is something to be said for big numbers. They open up a great number of possibilities.

Anyway, a few months ago I gave some thought to stats for Mab in DFRPG. I quickly realized that I was going to have to invent a lot of new stuff if I wanted reasonable stats. Here's what I came up with:

1. Upgraded Physical Immunity that protects against maneuvers and blocks as well.
2. A permanent power similar to All Creatures Are Equal Before God.
3. Self-Sponsored Magic.
4. The ability to take (lots of) Sponsor debt for all kinds of different things.
5. Really, really, really, impressive evocation-speed Thaumaturgy.
6. Standard uber-character stunts and skills and powers.
7. Marked By Power+

I think that this provides a decent start on actual rules for gods. 1 and 2 make fighting a god virtually impossible. 3 and 4 give gods what amounts to a huge-but-finite tank of power to spend on whatever they want while binding them closely to their own natures. 5 allows for divine miracles of the sort you're looking for. 6 and 7 are just mandatory.

Gods statted on this model would be able to do essentially anything within their own themes if they were willing to spend their reserves of sponsor debt. But they'd constantly have to husband those reserves of power. Anything which could wipe away previous debt or give them more to spend would be precious to them. (Like the stone table in Summer Knight, maybe.)

I got distracted and never went anywhere with this. Maybe you'll find it useful, I dunno.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Oh, don't get me wrong.  I didn't say it wouldn't be fun to play.  If you think you can do the story you have floating around in your head justice, do it.  If not, work on it while you run other scenarios until you think its time has come.

Just remember two things:

1) The tougher the fight, the more epic the win.
2) Starting power level is largely irrelevant, accomplishment is as sweet to a plumber as it is to a god.

They both apply to every game ever made and life in general.

[HumAnnoyd]

You should check Kerberos Club.  It has some nifty rules on different tiers of power.  And it is a damn fine read.  Here is a link to a discussion on the power tiers:

http://arcdream.com/home/?p=866

[Tedronai]

1. Upgraded Physical Immunity that protects against maneuvers and blocks as well.

Mab can't be tripped?  Or have silly string sprayed in her eyes?  Or be impeded by a threshold? (a highly specialized form of block against physical, among other, actions)

[Gatts]

Mab can't be tripped?  Or have silly string sprayed in her eyes?  Or be impeded by a threshold? (a highly specialized form of block against physical, among other, actions)

Barring Cold Iron and the Trappings Of Summer, yeah I'd imagine that's the case. Can you really imagine Mab being tripped?