Lawbreaker and Summer/Winter Magic

[NicholasQuinn]

Sidhe Knights are Sidhe who are knights.  Think back to the battle scene in Summer Knight when you had those guys in full armour on horseback.  Those guys were knights.

That certainly makes sense, however I was going on the Sub-heading "Sidhe Knights", Pg 52, Our World. 

Edit: Which, for ease of reference: implies the term is used for Winter/Summer Knights.

[sinker]

Yes they do Summer or Winter Magic respectively.

Except that the original post is more about mortals using sponsored magic. The title may mention winter/summer, but the post really has nothing to do with winter or summer at all. If the question is :

I can argue myself round and round in circles for both sides on whether or not I think mortals using magic that comes entirely from an external source would warp you like mortal magic does. Don't get me wrong it certainly effects you, but in the ways sponsored magic is described as doing... the question is do you eat lawbreaker stunts as well?

Then immortals that use winter or summer magic are completely irrelevant.

[Arcane257]

Yeah I realized I may be asking the wrong question here. I am starting to think the right question is can no caster talent mortals outside of the knights be imbued with Seelie or Unseelie magic?

The knights seem to be a special case as they have their own "mantle of power" they gain when they take up the role that seems to have a lot of power wrapped up in it. So it seems to me that it would take a huge investment from ether court to imbue a normal mortal with Fairy Magic.

Can anyone think of examples in the books that would support a total non practitioner getting any sort of powers imbued into them? The closest I can think of is from changes

(click to show/hide)

Susan getting the super outfit in Changes and even the that's not really her getting powered up so much as her stuff is getting temporarily enchanted

So maybe to wield Fairy Magic you must be some sort of practitioner no matter how small and thus are subject to the laws if not a changeling, Knight, or Fairy.

Thoughts?

[Richard_Chilton]

In theory there would be ways to "pact" with a fairy lord for magic - and I'm basing that off of the other forms of sponsored magic.  That said, I can see a mundane having to perform duties in exchange for power.  Life altering duties.

A while ago I posted a Knight/Emissary of Santa Claus (at http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23084.msg991664.html#msg991664 where someone's life was completely altered when he agreed to be an emissary of Santa Claus.  He ended up with a variant of unseelie magic but his new office dominants his life.  That's the sort of price I see a normal mortal having to pay for fairy magic.

As for changelings, are they "human" enough to be lawbreakers? I think they are, at least until they make their choice to be true fae, but I can't make a strong argument over that point.

My view is that "lawbreaker/not lawbreaker" all comes down to "does the sponsor do the magic" or "does the mortal wield a small part of the sponsored power"? If the former then the mortal isn't working black magic - just serving as a vessel for it - and is no more a lawbreaker than someone using a magic belt.
If the latter, then we're back at why lawbreaker exists.  Repeatedly throughout the books we are told that a wizard can't do something magically that the wizard doesn't believe in.  That a wizard can't kill someone with magic unless that wizard believes that murder is all right - and in the game that mindset is reflected by the lawbreaker power.

Richard

[sinker]

In theory there would be ways to "pact" with a fairy lord for magic - and I'm basing that off of the other forms of sponsored magic.  That said, I can see a mundane having to perform duties in exchange for power.  Life altering duties.

I primarily agree with this, however my thought that you could do so by exchanging one of many things, rather than simply a life of servitude. Perhaps an item of substantive power? How about all of your memories...ever (that would make for either a really interesting or really irritating character)? Anyway, my thought is that you could probably get away without being directly responsible to the fae lord, however it would alter your life in a significant way, and the fae lord is still going to be a part of your life regardless.

[Richard_Chilton]

Hmmm... I can see something like that working.

The Sidhe can't give something for nothing (everything has to be a trade) so if they will change your life by granting you magic then they need something of equal worth.  Your item of power (say one worth 4 refresh), your memories (and thus your old life) - something like that could be a fair exchange.

Richard

[dudemanrocks]

I don't recall anything from the books about users of (Un)Seelie Magic besides the Knights and Fae, but the game mechanics leave plenty of room for it.

I'd say those mortals do have to worry about corrupting there own souls by killing with magic.  It would be different if the sponser forced the action, bodily and mentally, but not if the the mortal is excercising free will.  Also, the Fae could definitely offer protection from the consequences... for the right price.

[Becq]

I don't recall anything from the books about users of (Un)Seelie Magic besides the Knights and Fae, but the game mechanics leave plenty of room for it.

Dresden makes use of 'loaned' Fae magic several time throughout the series, including the use of Summer magic in the heart of the Winter realm.  Nothing that would touch on the Lawbreaking question, though, that I recall.