Mind Magic questions

[Arcane257]

Ok so I had a player asked me how mind magic would work if they decided to use it. I realized in the past when it came to NPCs I just hand waved it.

If i want to make a mindless grunt who does my bidding but not much else what would I do?

If wanted to say turn my young apprentice into my loving servant who can still cast spells, defend me, and in general think for themselves?

Got tired of paying my lawyers fees so I make her mine but I need her to still represent me in court what then? IS this the same as above or can it be stronger since they aren't casting spells?



Last but not least which of these can Wamps do and how?


I think I know how with Thaumaturgy but figured it would be good to check how others thought it would be done.

Sorry for the edit had to clear things up.

[Guldor]

I would be some kind of ritual, which should be designed to took out the victims mental stress track and then adding shifts for consequences. The classical mindless grunt would get the extreme consequence "Enthralled" or something like this. Every time he gets an order form the wizard, he wold get an compel for this consequence.
Rulewise: The complexity of a ritual like this would be: Conviction (or perhaps discipline) of the victim + 4 + shifts to fill the mental stress track and add consequences.

Another possibility I could imagine is to use Spirit evocation to attack the thoughts of a victim using his conviction (perhaps discipline...I´m not sure) as a defensive skill. If you deal enough stress to create consequences it´s like the above sample.

[Silverblaze]

One way to do it is pretty much mechanically just what Guldor said.  To further explain it: I'd say that the result would be transforming your victims mind rather than body.  Therefore it would become what you wanted it to be, rather than just be destroyed or turned into a blank slate.

I suppose constant sticky maneuvers and aspects could also simulate it, but i think it leaves too much that can go wrong for the caster of the spells.

[sinker]

I've always liked playing mind magic a little faster than the rest. Initially it would be a ritual, but I imagine with enough practice and study (or someone who did all that first and was willing to teach) one could start doing mind evocation. Heck I imagine that's why some of Kemmler's disciples are capable of it.

Mechanically this is all done with aspects. An aspect can be invoked for effect to create unusual or "controlled" behavior. A maneuvered aspect would represent a temporary state of suggestibility as it can be shaken off with little more than a discipline or conviction roll. Once you start dealing mental stress the consequences become more permanent control, as the aspect stays until the person can start the healing process and rest for a bit. Finally once you take someone out you are free to redefine them as you wish, even changing their high concept from something like "Lawyer" perhaps to "Loyal lawyer servant of Neuromancer so-and-so."

[Sanctaphrax]

I think a WCV could enact any of your examples. But it would take time, meaning you'd have to take your target out over and over.

Exactly how many times you have to take your target out and how often you can do it is basically arbitrary.

[Arcane257]

Thanks guys I think the game terms I was looking for are
Thrall

Rough Thrall

Fine Thrall


I was wondering if anyone had done the mechanics of creating the three types via Ritual magic and white vamp antics.

[sinker]

The thing about those is that all three of them would be created by taking someone out. As a GM I think I would look at the process to determine which of those applies to the given circumstance (I.E. How much care was taken, the period of time in which it was done) but to be purely technical, the second a player takes someone out with any sort of mind control method they may apply any of those labels to their victim. The take out is theirs to describe (within reason subject to the table) and since they are dealing mental stress then most of those concepts are within reason.

To actually create this spell with ritual you're looking at "Victor Sells' exploding heart spell" but aimed at the mental stress track, and with a different intent. For a WCV? There are a lot of things to look at here, many of their "fine thralls" are really just addicts, and could choose to disobey, but won't because then they won't get their fix. I'm waxing thematic though, and I should stop. Mechanically any time a WCV takes a person out with their feeding they could choose a variety of effects from death to thralldom. Again, as long as the victim has been taken out then it's up to the victor how that works.

[Guldor]

@Sinker: Do you use "Mind Magic" as a new evocation element or do you simulate it with spirit evocation. But when you do this with spirit evocation: Is spirit evocation too powerful then?

[sinker]

Spirit is the proper element according to the book. To be honest I don't put a lot of effort into thinking about the balance of the elements. They seem pretty out of whack in the first place, with fire being the least useful and elements like water and spirit (ones with conceptual additions) being a little more flexible.

If you're uncomfortable with that I would suggest asking your players to pick an aspect that limits their use of an element (as both Molly and Harry have with regards to the spirit element). With mind magic (something I believe takes a good deal of study to get good at) you wouldn't be wrong to ask the player to almost limit themselves exclusively to that aspect of spirit.

[Becq]

My opionions:

While spirit magic can be used to do 'mind magic' along the line of mental attacks, it doesn't have the intricacy to create even the roughest of thralls.  It's kind of like trying to do a heart transplant with an Uzi.  Or perhaps a better example would be a brain transplant with a rocket launcher.  At best, it could be used to mentally damage someone enough (generating consequences) to make them more biddable to more mundane manipulation.

To create thralls, I think you need to use Psychomancy.  This usually requires a ritual, but in the case of certain sponsored magics including Kemmlerian Necromancy, it can be done at evocation speed (which is why Kemmler's disciples can do it).

[/opinion]