Author Topic: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track  (Read 16535 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 09:25:03 PM »
I don't think that there's anything in the rules that actually says that you can make mental attacks with Spirit. It's a valid reading, but I don't know why people act as though it's explicitly allowed. Could I get a quote?

Lawbreaker is a weak deterrent because non-humans are the ones you most want to use mental attacks against.

The good GM/bad GM thing could be used to justify literally any rules problem, by the way. If there was a mortal stunt that gave +30 to all skills under all circumstances, good GMs would not use it and bad GMs would not need it. Doesn't mean it's good or sane.

I sort of like the negative refresh = mental armour houserule, except for four things:

1. NPCs don't necessarily have actual refresh levels.
2. This rule would mean that having a higher refresh level makes you weaker. That's bad.
3. This rule would make Incite Emotion attacks utterly pathetic against many monsters.
4. Your amount of negative refresh doesn't really have any in-game reality, and this goes against that.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 10:07:00 PM »
Don't know if there is a quote.  Hyperawareness tends to make me think Spirit can do mental though.  It could also be a physical alteration if it were Earth but Spirit... pretty much has to be mental.  And if you can do a mental evocation on yourself, you can do one on others.  Plus, most of the mental mojo flung around in canon was done evocation style.  That's my reasoning anyway.

I'm ok with them putting the mental whammy on baddies too.  I mean if most vamps, including the playable varieties, can do it, why limit the full on casters?

On your points:

1. True, but most all of yours do.
2. I'm fine with that meaning they're closer to human thinking. It's not necessarily good or bad, just arbitrary.
3. Incite emotion never had the downside of working poorly on non-mortals. No need to extend the mental armor to work against it.
4. See 2.  Granted, it lends a new level of complexity to NPC stats but that doesn't necessarily break the NPCs. It just means you have to take that into account when picking them.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 10:30:52 PM »
Some mental stuff is possible by the RAW. And mental attack evocations feature prominently in the novels. But the actual rules don't explicitly allow them; they leave the question open.

1. All of my NPCs have refresh levels. But that's just me. I felt I ought to point out that the rules don't actually require that.
2. Eh. Still don't like it. But you do have a point.
3. Alright, fine.
4. See #2.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2011, 01:09:09 AM »
Yeah, not disagreeing on it being an interpretation.  Even a fairly RAW unsupported one.  Absent a WoI we're pretty much stuck House Rule-ing it one way or the other, so I'm going to lean towards canon. YMMV.

1. Kudos for that too.

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Offline ways and means

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2011, 01:13:57 AM »
I don't think that there's anything in the rules that actually says that you can make mental attacks with Spirit.

"Spirit also covers mental magic, emotions,ghosts – that sort of stuff." Your Story pg 255. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 01:19:15 AM by ways and means »
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Offline zenten

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2011, 02:29:53 AM »
That would support some sort of mental evocations, yes.  But that could easily just be blocks and manouvers.

Offline Haru

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2011, 02:36:53 AM »
Mental stress I reserve primarily for the bad guys. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do that quickly and effectively (I.E. with evocation's speed and methods). Most good guys are not going to sit and break one mind after the next just so that they can do it flawlessly later. Otherwise I'd allow it as a ritual, or if the caster's intent is to harm the target (plenty easy to tear someone's mind up, much harder to only damage specific bits in specific ways). And of course its usually lawbreaking.
Pretty much my opinion.

But I had another idea. Not sure how it would work in game, but maybe it's something to try:

I would go so far as to say, the conflict dictates the manner of consequence someone takes (casting stress aside). So if you are in a physical conflict, you are going to do physical stress.

I know that kind of gives emotional vampires a handicap, but only slightly, I believe.

It should however be possible to change the conflict accordingly. If I remember correctly, any time an emotional vampire has been using his ability in the book, it was never mid-fight. It was either completely outside of a physical conflict, or the physical conflict ended and was replaced by a mental one (admittedly a short one mostly). I am thinking especially of Lara vs. Daddy dearest or Harry vs Corpsetaker, but there are others as well.

Ok, what am I trying to say here?
Maybe a mental attack could work similar to that. Instead of a mental attack, the mental attacker would have to do a maneuver spell to connect to the target. Once placed, it can be tagged to force the target into a will vs. will fight. Of course, both opponents would drop their dodge roll to terrible for the time, since they can no longer partake in the physical conflict. The fight itself could be resolved using conviction to dodge and discipline to attack. Or alternatively the skills that best represent the characters self image, though that seems like it should be stunts.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2011, 02:44:05 AM »
That would support some sort of mental evocations, yes.  But that could easily just be blocks and manouvers.
I think you're reaching.   ;) 
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2011, 04:16:14 AM »
@ways and means: Thanks.

@UmbraLux: I wouldn't say he's reaching. That passage is pretty open to interpretation.

One interpretation I like is to allow mental attacks without using the same rules as physical attacks. Maybe don't give them a weapon rating.

@Haru: Don't really like the idea. Too easy for your buddies to kill your enemy while you fight them mentally.

@The Mighty Buzzard: Is the thing you're stuck on something I can help with?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2011, 04:23:26 AM »
@UmbraLux: I wouldn't say he's reaching. That passage is pretty open to interpretation.

I'd certainly like to see the train of logic that leads to that interpretation without detours through some variation on 'evocation mental attacks break the game, so I don't want to allow them'.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2011, 04:26:49 AM »
Evocation is a limited form of magic. It can't do a whole lot that isn't a direct application of physical force. It stands to reason that it wouldn't be capable of really potent mental effects.

It isn't an inarguable position, but it's defensible.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 04:30:10 AM »
@The Mighty Buzzard: Is the thing you're stuck on something I can help with?

Eh, depends.  I'm debating on whether I should just slap down a whole stinking lot of spaces for powers/stunts or start with one of each and have a new one pop up beneath as you start entering data in the one above.  The latter makes for a much smaller page and easier parsing but it means I have to monkey with AJAX, which I really despise working with.
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Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 04:33:04 AM »
It stands to reason that it wouldn't be capable of really potent mental effects.

I would have said complicated rather than potent.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 12:40:56 PM »
@UmbraLux: I wouldn't say he's reaching. That passage is pretty open to interpretation.
Evocation is a limited form of magic. It can't do a whole lot that isn't a direct application of physical force. It stands to reason that it wouldn't be capable of really potent mental effects.

It isn't an inarguable position, but it's defensible.
Evocation isn't at potent as thaumaturgy, I agree.  However that has little to do with whether or not you can attack within evocation's limits. 

The problem with interpreting the book's assignation of mental spells to Spirit as "maneuver only" (or at least non-attack) is simply that you're arbitrarily interpreting it differently from every other elemental trapping.  Each of the other elements and each of the other Spirit trappings can be used with all three forms of action - attacks, blocks, and maneuvers.  There simply isn't any support in the book for deciding one trapping of Spirit can't use the attack option.

Nothing wrong with your group house ruling it at your table.  I even understand, and to some degree agree with, the arguments against allowing it.  But trying to arbitrarily reinterpret the book so it agrees with your house rule is unnecessary. 
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Offline Judanas

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Re: Evocation vs Mental/Social Track
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 06:27:35 PM »
Lawbreaker is a weak deterrent because non-humans are the ones you most want to use mental attacks against.

Sort of. According to 'Our World', Toot Toot was considered human by the Wardens for the purpose of mental effects.

'Human' is apparently a very wide net.