Evocation vs Mental/Social Track

[sinker]

I've always been quick to point that out as well. Often people see mental stress as tiredness simply because of it's connection to spellcasting, and I think that often people skim the section on mental and social conflict.

[Tedronai]

When Harry comments on the use of sleep spells, he quite clearly references them as mental effects recognized by the Council as a grey area in the Laws, acceptable in particular circumstances.

[Sanctaphrax]

Is this from the novels or the RPG?

[zenten]

Yeah, it's not like the novels use the Mental/Social/Physical track distinction.

[Becq]

When Harry comments on the use of sleep spells, he quite clearly references them as mental effects recognized by the Council as a grey area in the Laws, acceptable in particular circumstances.

I don't recognize this reference, but fatigue spells that induce sleep are acceptable because they aren't mental attacks.  Keep in mind that even if the novels use words such as a 'mental effect', this does not necessarily mean the same thing as DFRPG means by 'mental attack'.  If you read the quotes I suggested, you'll see that DFRPG clearly differentiates the two.

[Tedronai]

I do not recall the specific novel (though I suspect Turn Coat), but I believe that particular analysis was in reference to the use of such a spell at Murphy's (not the instance of such a spell used on Murphy), if that helps anyone else find the particular passage.

Also, I'd like to point out that while it would be certainly  possible to cause someone to fall asleep by using a spell to induce overwhelming fatigue (represented by physical stress and consequences), it would also be possible by using a spell to simply command the mind to enter the appropriate state (represented by mental stress and consequences), which I believe better represents the instances seen in the novels.

[sinker]

Except that you really aren't influencing the person's sense of self. You're creating a physical effect. Fate is all about your end product, not the way you get there. I would argue that a mental sleep spell would still do physical stress, because the end result is physical. You aren't attempting to change who they are, you're attempting to cause their physical state to change. In that way I suppose one could still break the fourth law while only dealing physical stress.

[Tedronai]

The difference between a physical sleep spell and a mental sleep spell is the difference between "I don't know why I'm so tired, but I need to sleep now" and "I'm not tired, but, yes, you're right, I shall sleep now".

If the command, instead of being to sleep, was to jump off a cliff to the victim's inevitable death (quite clearly a physical result), would you still have the incremental effects be physical?
What if the command was to follow verbal instructions which included jumping off that same cliff?
What if the command was to take no actions, despite the physical assault the victim is being subjected to by the mage's allies?
What if, instead of a command, the spell inflicts crushing apathy resulting in the target losing the will to so much as breathe?

The end result in each case is clearly physical, after all.
And yet, Incite Emotion would suggest that the last, at the least, is definitively a source of mental stress and consequences.

[UmbraLux]

The difference between a physical sleep spell and a mental sleep spell is the difference between "I don't know why I'm so tired, but I need to sleep now" and "I'm not tired, but, yes, you're right, I shall sleep now".

I'd argue the difference is what goes to sleep.  A mental 'sleep' spell would put the mind to sleep resulting in something like catatonia.  It wouldn't directly affect the body though, just removes any mental control.  On the other hand, a physical sleep spell would induce fatigue and exhaustion resulting in anything from debilitating enervation to sleep.

[sinker]

The difference between a physical sleep spell and a mental sleep spell is the difference between "I don't know why I'm so tired, but I need to sleep now" and "I'm not tired, but, yes, you're right, I shall sleep now".

It occurs to me that I don't think this is possible. Can you choose to sleep instantaneously?

My point though is that this is physical conflict. The purpose of these attacks is to remove someone from the physical conflict. The purpose is not to change who someone is. Also consider that any consequences would be long lasting and mental. Is it appropriate for someone to carry around a consequence of "sleepy" for weeks until they can see a psychiatrist? That seems odd.

I think what I've realized with this is that I would not allow mental sleep spells at all. I would allow spells to deal mental stress with the idea of making the target susceptible to suggestion. Once they have been taken out it is entirely up to the victor to determine what that suggestion is.

I just don't like the idea of consequences that don't fit the attack or the stress inflicted.

Additionally I think that any sleep spell (or any magic at all) that deals mental stress is breaking the fourth law, period. At that point you are reshaping their mind.

[Becq]

Also, I'd like to point out that while it would be certainly  possible to cause someone to fall asleep by using a spell to induce overwhelming fatigue (represented by physical stress and consequences), it would also be possible by using a spell to simply command the mind to enter the appropriate state (represented by mental stress and consequences), which I believe better represents the instances seen in the novels.

Assuming the he underlined spell is possible (and it probably is) it would, of course, be Lawbreaking.  Specifically, the Fourth Law:

"A close cousin of the Third, the Fourth Law goes beyond the simple invasion of another’s mind to outright mastery over it. Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person."  (YS240)

As to the example you gave, I can't place it right at the moment, but if it worked as you described, I would agree that it was mental stress, but it would absolutely be Lawbreaking.  I agree with Sinker; I still have yet to hear of a way to inflict mental stress via spell that isn't Lawbreaking.  (Well, when used against a mortal, at least.)

[ways and means]

Well I still think some particularly nasty wizards with an understanding off there target could create illusions that cause mental stress to the target without enthralling them or directly touching their mind at all. Also lawbreaking on this issue is usually about control so if you just decide to break someones mind  just destroy it straight up without seeking control (perhaps with an entropy curse or just illusion) you wouldn't be enthralling them technically.   

[sinker]

Well I still think some particularly nasty wizards with an understanding off there target could create illusions that cause mental stress to the target without enthralling them or directly touching their mind at all.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but that's kinda.... Yes. If the circumstances are such that a wizard could effect a person at that level, then the wizard would be able to do so.

I don't think I'd allow them to use illusions as an attack though. Consider the fact that the power of the illusion is irrelevant to how well it effects the target. The target will be effected better based on the content of the illusions, not how well they have been pulled off. It's still making an attack with rapport or deceit (or whatever skill we normally make mental attacks with).

Also lawbreaking on this issue is usually about control so if you just decide to break someones mind  just destroy it straight up without seeking control (perhaps with an entropy curse or just illusion) you wouldn't be enthralling them technically.   

I know this isn't technically RAW or cannon but I would nail the person who destroyed another's mind with lawbreaker so very fast. I see the fourth law as an extension of the first and second. In that way even destroying their mind is against the universal order (though it may be a great argument for the wardens).

[Tedronai]

As to the example you gave, I can't place it right at the moment, but if it worked as you described, I would agree that it was mental stress, but it would absolutely be Lawbreaking.

Do as you'd like at your table, but canon appears to treat things differently.
As I said:

When Harry comments on the use of sleep spells, he quite clearly references them as mental effects recognized by the Council as a grey area in the Laws, acceptable in particular circumstances.

(bolding added)

[sinker]

One of the issues I'm seeing here Tedronai is that you seem to be confusing "mental effect" and "mental stress."

A mental effect is a thematic term, something that is not physical. It could be a stun or sleep spell or an illusion or many other things. All of those may deal physical stress as physical stress represents someone's complete health (including tiredness, stun, etc).

Mental stress is a mechanical term, the representation of a person's psyche. Who they are and what they believe. In the same way physical effects may deal mental stress (Torture!).

This is the description of mental stress in the book.

The stress and consequences suffered by mental
conflicts are the deepest of the deep—forays
into suicidal thoughts, emotional dependencies,
deep compulsions, and other behaviors and
thoughts typically classified as dysfunctional
in some way or another. Mental damage is the
kind of damage that changes or erodes a person’s
sense of self; suffering enough of these consequences
over time tends to presage a trip to the
mental ward, or at least to permanent counseling.

Do you really think that you could do that with magic and not break the third or fourth laws? I don't see it.