Using Emotional Vampire and Incite Emotion

[wyvern]

Not as one action.  But they would get the +1 on attacks (from emotional vampire - though only when operating at a range of touch), once they had an appropriate aspect in place, either as a maneuver, or potentially as a consequence from incite attacks.  (Though note that a consequence has to be chosen by the target, and may not be appropriate.)

[Watson]

Yeah except incite emotions by itself can inflict emotional stress with upgrades. So you are saying once they have the upgrade they can do both then?

Yes, the Incite Emotion can be used to Attack, but only after buying the Lasting Emotion upgrade. The Emotional Vampire power allows for an Attack as well - and the rules say that using the Incite Emotion, the character can incite the emotion and feed using the same roll.

[Watson]

Huh.  I would simply not allow a maneuver and an attack as a single action.  Compare, for example, Blood Drinker - it's basically the same power, just physical instead of mental.  And it opens up with a maneuver to "draw blood", followed by allowing subsequent attacks at +1.  So I'd read the "inciting and feeding on it may be done as a single action..." part as being an example of "As a baseline, whenever you're near an 'eligible' strong emotion, you may draw in mild sustenance from it.  This... doesn't have much of an immediate effect."

In other words, IC, you're starting to feed.  OOC, you've made a maneuver, but have not yet attacked.  Any other interpretation runs into the game balance problems that have been discussed in this thread.

I completely agree in that the combo (Maneuver + Feeding Touch) is really powerful - too powerful for my taste. I think that this combo might have slipped through, or have not been found, during playtesting (or it could be that I have misunderstood the rules).

I might actually create a house rule that prevents a Maneuver and a feeding with a single roll (single action). If one compares Emotional Vampire with Blood Drinker, they are in my opinion about the same in potency even if one removes the ability to incite and feed using the same roll. The reason is that the Emotional Vampire has the ability to create mental stress (as an Attack) - the equivalent bonus for Blood Drinker would be the additional point of stress caused during a Grapple.

[ways and means]

The wording is explicitly goes against your view though

"you have the
Incite Emotion ability, inciting the emotion
and feeding on it may be done as a single
action, based on a single roll." Your Story

Inciting the Emotion (maneuvering) and feeding (attacking) done in the same turn using the same roll (which would be at a +2).
To deal with this problem my house rule is that the act of feeding and inciting are the same (so you choose stress or an aspect ) when they deal stress so don't stack so you just get a +1 to incite emotion on every hit on the target after the first.

I housed ruled it a bit with my group basically making the inciting and the feeding the same actions so for my friends pc with incite emotion and emotional vampire he could make a straight mental attack in the first round which represented him both inciting and feeding. If there was a consequence or an aspect is created via a maneuver he could then get a +1 to his incite/feed action every other round on the same target.

[Watson]

Inciting the Emotion (maneuvering) and feeding (attacking) done in the same turn using the same roll (which would be at a +2).

If the rules are read so that the +2 (from Emotional Vampire) is added on the Attack roll (from Feeding Touch) it gets even worse in terms of being too powerful.

In the second exchange, assuming that the Manueuver worked in the first exchange, the character can technically tag the Aspect from the first exchange for a +2, get a +2 as part of creating a new Aspect and then another +1 (from Feeding Touch).

Having it so that one can either create an Aspect or feed sounds good.

[wyvern]

The wording is explicitly goes against your view though

So I'd read the "inciting and feeding on it may be done as a single action..." part as being an example of "As a baseline, whenever you're near an 'eligible' strong emotion, you may draw in mild sustenance from it.  This... doesn't have much of an immediate effect."

In other words, I already addressed your point.  Feeding does not automatically equate to a game-mechanical attack action.

[Watson]

Feeding does not automatically equate to a game-mechanical attack action.

The actual feeding is described as "...a psychological attack..." which interpret as a Mental Attack that causes mental stress (as stress is mentioned under "The Taste of Death").

[wyvern]

The actual feeding is described as "...a psychological attack..." which interpret as a Mental Attack that causes mental stress (as stress is mentioned under "The Taste of Death").

As a baseline, whenever you're near an "eligible" strong emotion, you may draw in mild sustenance from it.  This just grazes the surface of the victim's life force, maybe making them a shade less vital in the long term, but it doesn't have much of an immediate effect.

Feeding Touch.  Physical contact is where it's at for a satisfying, long-term meal...

In other words, feeding-as-an-attack isn't the only form of feeding available - it's just not a particularly satisfying meal without that.

[Silverblaze]

So one roll, double damage eh? Feed damage + incite damage . . .

No.

I'd never allow it in a game I ran. Regardless what rules as written say.  Because I can make a mid level refresh character one shot kill most anything without gettign to feed and do damage also.

Too much damage for one attack or in this game breaking scenario two attacks.

People should do as they please in their games, but I know overpowered when I see it.

[Watson]

So one roll, double damage eh? Feed damage + incite damage . . .

That is not the issue here - Feed stress + Incite stress using the same roll is not possible. The most basic version of Incite Emotion does not allow for a mental attack (i.e. does not allow feeding to create stress, only to do a Maneuver and to Block).

The issue is the inciting of an emotion (thorough Incite Emotion, most basic version) and feeding (through Emotional Vampire) using the same roll.

[ways and means]

I think it is best just to see incite emotion and feeding as one action so when you make an emotion attack with potent emotion you are also feeding at the same time (a psychological attack is happening either ways so why quibble over where the stress is coming from) which means you probably get a +1 to incite emotion roles after the first hit but not another actions. As for the basic power I just assume that means you can feed without creating an aspect in advance by (inciting as you feed) which just works out as a flat mental attack.

[ARedthorn]

My read on the "as one roll" was a lot less dangerous...
1) it allows you to fulfill the eligible emotion clause of Emotional Vampire without the need for a second roll on a prior round (skipping the need to declare, assess or maneuver it into play, which if required all the time would get to be a lot of hassle)
2) it allows you to use the more powerful of your Emotional Vampire roll or Incite Emotion roll to do a single damage effect (no double-dipping on dealing damage... just one attack with one damage effect, at the better of the two... after all, even Lasting Emotion carries a higher Mental Stress potential than Emotional Vampire does by itself).

You're more or less getting the chance to roll the two powers into eachother- gaining a single power with all the trappings of both... not the chance to do massively more damage.

[Silverblaze]

If it doesn't do double damage, I have no issue with the concept of two effects with the one roll.

[toturi]

As I read it, Incite Emotion together with Emotional Vampire allows the character to inflict stress with the bonus from Incite Emotion as a single action. It may be a powerful combination, but to my view, Incite Emo + Emo Vamp is an alternate version of Incite Emo + Lasting Emo. For 2 Refresh, you can either get a +2 to the attack or a Weapon 2.

[ways and means]

My read on the "as one roll" was a lot less dangerous...
1) it allows you to fulfill the eligible emotion clause of Emotional Vampire without the need for a second roll on a prior round (skipping the need to declare, assess or maneuver it into play, which if required all the time would get to be a lot of hassle)
2) it allows you to use the more powerful of your Emotional Vampire roll or Incite Emotion roll to do a single damage effect (no double-dipping on dealing damage... just one attack with one damage effect, at the better of the two... after all, even Lasting Emotion carries a higher Mental Stress potential than Emotional Vampire does by itself).

You're more or less getting the chance to roll the two powers into eachother- gaining a single power with all the trappings of both... not the chance to do massively more damage.

This is how I see it two, a merging of the powers so that both powers gain the benefits of the others (taste of death +1 bonus, +x weapons rating + range etc) but only one attack happens.