Cleaning Up The Stunt List

[JediDresden]

Sorry I must have missed it, but are you changing the original stunt list with these changes, or is there a new master list somewhere.  These changes are good, I like them.

[Sanctaphrax]

When this is finished, it will replace the original list.

And I'm glad you like the changes.

[JediDresden]

I lurk a lot, but don't like making comments myself, because I still feel unsure about the mechanics.  I rely on you all who know more than I do.  Thanks again.

[Sanctaphrax]

And now for Resources.

If these pass muster, I'll compile an edited fourth post.

Wealth Beyond Imagination: You're not just wealthy, you're RICH. Add two to your Resources skill when using it to buy things that an ordinary person would consider too expensive to buy.

ALurker convinced me to drop this one.

Prized Possession: You own something well above your income level. You may select a single item with a value up to your Resources skill +2 and add it to your starting gear.

This is bad and now it's going to disappear.

Access Pass: You have access to excellent scientific facilities as part of your job. You can use, but do not own, a library and workspace of Superb quality.

Think I'm just going to ditch this one too. In retrospect, it seems like a dumb idea.

My Wallet Has A Lot To Say: You know how to use your money socially. Add two to your Resources skill when using the Money Talks trapping.

This falls victim to the new guideline for social stunts. Splitting it in half:

I Get By: You aren't rich exactly, but somehow you never ever suffer from a lack of money. Treat your Resources skill as Fantastic whenever it would complement, modify, or restrict another skill.
Shut Up And Take My Money: You're very good at bribery, be it subtle or overt. Bribery-based attacks that you make with the Resources skill inflict two additional stress.**

Sponsored Resources: You have a powerful patron who will sometimes let you borrow money and goods. When you take this stunt, select an entity or organization of great wealth to be your sponsor. Once per session, you may add four to your Resources skill for a single roll as long as that roll somehow benefits the agenda of your sponsor. If you do, you take a point of sponsor debt as if you had used Sponsored Magic.

The canon stunt Windfall is very similar to this one, but it's limited to once per adventure (whatever that means) and it uses no sponsor. So I guess I ought to limit this to once/adventure.

Sponsored Resources: You have a powerful patron who will sometimes let you borrow money and goods. When you take this stunt, select an entity or organization of great wealth to be your sponsor. Once per adventure, you may add four to your Resources skill for a single roll as long as that roll somehow benefits the agenda of your sponsor. If you do, you take a point of sponsor debt as if you had used Sponsored Magic.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure Sponsored Resources is even necessary. From YS 139:

You may have access to an organization’s resources under certain circumstances; this allows you to roll a different rating than your personal Resources skill. Rolling that way means you’re expending that organization’s resources, not your own.
For example, a consultant for Monoc Securities might decide to acquire a private jet for corporate use. The consultant’s Resources might only be Fair (+2), but in this case the consultant rolls using Monoc’s expense account, rated at Fantastic (+6).

That seems to be its effect exactly, built into the skill without having to spend refresh on it, or sponsor debt (though some GMs might work invokes and compels around it).

[Sanctaphrax]

The fact that something in the game can duplicate the effect of a stunt does not make a stunt not worthwhile.

A character does not have any kind of "right" to use an organization's Resources under normal circumstances. But once you write a stunt on your character sheet, you have a right to its effect.

Sponsored Resources effectively takes something the GM can give you if he feels it appropriate and turns it into an actual part of your character. So I think it's good.

[Mr. Death]

It doesn't seem right to me to charge refresh for something that's described in the RAW as part of the skill trapping--the text doesn't say, "If you have a stunt..." or anything like that. It just says in some circumstances, the circumstances being that they're working through the organization and the spending's being done for something that aligns with its goals.

At most, I'd say it would require an aspect to justify it (maybe an Invoke for effect), and the roll would have to be for something within the sponsor's agenda, but it seems wrong for us to imply you need a stunt to do something the RAW says you can do without one.

[devonapple]

I see both sides of the disagreement about Sponsored Resources.

I propose a compromise solution: mention that, per YS 179, people attached to a Sponsor can already get this benefit, but that using the Stunt makes it a reliable proposition. Maybe recast it as something like "as an employee of an organization, you already have access to their Resources (YS 179), but with this stunt, their faith in you is such that you have a lot more latitude with your requests...[insert rest of text]"

[Gatts]

I see both sides of the disagreement about Sponsored Resources.

I propose a compromise solution: mention that, per YS 179, people attached to a Sponsor can already get this benefit, but that using the Stunt makes it a reliable proposition. Maybe recast it as something like "as an employee of an organization, you already have access to their Resources (YS 179), but with this stunt, their faith in you is such that you have a lot more latitude with your requests...[insert rest of text]"

That actually looks like a great solution, I second this.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, that makes sense. I could see a stunt to improve on it, something like "The CEO's Favorite: You can use your company's resources at either +2 or at 2 less time increments," but just the ability to use the resources at all shouldn't cost refresh.

[Sanctaphrax]

Ugh.

The ability to use an organization's resources does not necessarily cost refresh. But if you want it to be an integral part of your character you need to pay for it. Otherwise there's no reason not to do it.

Similarly, the GM can arbitrarily lower difficulties for social skill checks if it seems appropriate for the situation. But if I want to benefit from those lower difficulties consistently, I need to buy stunts.

I see no need to clarify. I find it genuinely hard to believe that anyone would be led astray by the current wording.

[Mr. Death]

The reason not to do it is that, realistically, the character shouldn't be able to get away with it constantly. Like anything else, it should come with consequences: Maybe if you get that jet this session, you can't get a company car to bring you to the big showdown next game.

I think making it a stunt sets bad precedent, in that you're encouraging people to use up refresh for something that the rules already say is something they can do anyway--it'd be like spending refresh on the stunt "Owns A Sword." I think requiring an aspect for it, and using invokes and compels on a situation-by-situation basis, is a better way to handle it.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is not a capability that you can have without a stunt, actually. Using someone else's skill is different from taking Sponsor Debt.

Also, Owns A Sword could be a cool stunt if it expanded one's sword-owning beyond the normal level. For example, by letting you have a sword even when it makes no sense for you to have a sword.

Actually, I wrote a power that can do that a while back.

My point wasn't that there's no reason not to buy everything using the organization's resources, my point was that there's no reason to make a character without that capability. You should not be able to make your character stronger by giving him a certain narrative role. In this game at least, there's no right way to play. (Or at least not much of one.)

[Mr. Death]

This is not a capability that you can have without a stunt, actually. Using someone else's skill is different from taking Sponsor Debt.

The passage I quoted, as I said, says nothing about a stunt, it just says you can do it under certain circumstances. Given that it's in the basic description for the skill itself (not the Stunts section), that seems to say it's something that can be done with the base skill.

Also, Owns A Sword could be a cool stunt if it expanded one's sword-owning beyond the normal level. For example, by letting you have a sword even when it makes no sense for you to have a sword.

That'd probably be better as an aspect; in fact, I think the example aspect Always Armed is cited for allowing exactly that, you invoke it to make a declaration that you have a weapon when you shouldn't.

My point wasn't that there's no reason not to buy everything using the organization's resources, my point was that there's no reason to make a character without that capability. You should not be able to make your character stronger by giving him a certain narrative role. In this game at least, there's no right way to play. (Or at least not much of one.)

Aspects, and invoking those aspects, can easily make a character stronger, in a given situation, because of their narrative role--that's part of their purpose. That's exactly what I'm proposing here, that you should have an aspect to take advantage of it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Not to be rude or anything, but I feel as though you didn't understand what I said last post. If I was unclear, please say so; I'm not the clearest speaker in the world and I don't mind being reminded of that.

Let me try to clarify:

1. The effect of using someone else's money without a stunt is different from the effect of using this stunt.

2. Declarations and other such effects work through GM fiat. The fact that a GM can grant you an effect for free if he thinks it a good idea does not make it inappropriate to make a stunt that gives that effect. Nor thus the fact that you can get that effect from equipment or other narrative constructs. See Breath Weapon; it's just an unlimited supply of javelins. You don't need a power to have javelins, but having an unlimited supply of javelins at all times is worth Refresh. (Probably not 2 Refresh, though.)

3. Aspects are all equal, in theory. So no matter what narrative role you pick, you get equal power out of it. Taking a certain aspect should not be "better" than taking another aspect.