Cleaning Up The Stunt List

[admiralducksauce]

Deceit already allows limited defense through the False Face Forward trapping (against Empathy and Intimidation actions, modified by your Rapport skill; could be interpreted to work against Rapport too.)  As such, I think that this stunt should be treated like footwork.  Granting it the abilities of a Rapport defense would be perfectly in line with regular guidelines.  Putting the "haven't gotten a read on you" requirement on it would make the stunt undercosted.

You convinced me.  Give it the full monty! 

[Sanctaphrax]

Huh, there's a lot to address here. I'll start with Silverblaze's concerns about me "ownership" of the list.

He's right. (Is Silverblaze is a guy?)

The stunt list is basically my personal project. I have more or less total control over it, and I'm pretty invested in it.

That's a fact. But it's not really a desirable one. Something more democratic would be preferable.

Hence my constant requests for input.

So, yeah. No need to apologize for pointing that out.

If the forum as a whole thinks that something I like is a bad idea, I'll get rid of it. But I will argue for its retention first.

And it's looking like Brutality might have to go. Even if I fix the stress-track-ignoring nonsense, it looks like it won't work out.

Pity. Exalted has loads of ways to maim people, and I was hoping I could make the same thing work in DFRPG.

Oh, and one other thing: a wound to your sword hand isn't actually any worse than a wound to your off hand unless the GM feels like making it so. Which he doesn't have to, since this isn't a physics simulator. The game works just fine if you take "Brief Feeling Of Orthodoxy" as a severe physical consequence.

[wyvern]

Hm.  How about this for something somewhat akin to Brutality:

Follow-Up Strike: When you tag an aspect representing physical damage for a +2 to hit with a physical attack, you deal an additional shift of effect if you hit (i.e. +1 weapon rating).  In addition, if the target of your attack chooses to take a consequence, that consequence must be directly related to the aspect you tagged.  (If they choose to take multiple consequences, only one consequence needs to be related.)

Mechanically, it's a bit weak - but it trades that off for the increased narrative control.  However, it still leaves exact choice of consequence (and whether to take one at all) to the target of the attack.  (This also combines fairly nastily with powers like Blood Drinker...)

Edit: Clarified that Follow-Up Strike applies only to physical attacks.  It provides no benefit if you're, say, tagging a concussion to boost an incite emotion attack.

[Sanctaphrax]

About Way Of The Gun: It looks more or less alright to me. Building guns is probably half of a trapping, and +1 stress is about half of a stunt bonus. But I suppose it could probably be beefed up a bit without harm. Any suggestions?

About Reflexive Shield: Maybe I was just being paranoid about this one. I'll leave it as-is unless I get a complaint from Arcane or someone else.

About the mount stunts: It has become obvious to me that designing stunts for mounted combat is almost impossible without rules for mounted combat. I have some of those, but they're just untested homebrew and I don't want to make the stunt list content dependent on their use. But I do want them to be compatible. I guess a basic +2 stress to mounted Weapons attacks would be inoffensive enough to work for the Weapons stunt. As for Athletics...I want to say penalty negation, but I don't think that my houserule idea actually involves penalties of any kind. I guess I'll have to think about it.

[Sanctaphrax]

In case people are curious, here are the mounted combat rules I mentioned: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1050694.html#msg1050694

I guess a Deceit-based Dirty Fighter would work, by your description of Dirty Fighter. Where can I find the original Dirty Fighter for comparison?

I think that Clever Wrestler should stay as a penalty. Otherwise, it can either can make being grappled into a good thing. Clever wording could probably fix that, but not elegantly. And it would probably be balanced to make it a flat 2 shifts all the time, if the variable bonus is a problem. So...

Clever Wrestling: You aren't easy to hold down. Treat all grapples that are made against you as though their strength was two shifts lower.

I think I'll probably give Feint a prereq, but before I do so let me ask: can you already make blocks against physical attacks using the Distraction And Misdirection trapping of Deceit?

I've been trying to avoid the problems of the USE MY APEX SKILL TO NOT GET HIT by giving the various physical defense skills interesting and appropriate restrictions. The guy who defends with Endurance is vulnerable to heavy weapons or The Catch, the guy who defends with Weapons is vulnerable to ranged attacks. Another stunt might suffice to remove the limitations, or perhaps not.

Problem is that I can't think of anything interesting and appropriate for Discipline, and that supplemental action thing is all I've got for Deceit.

[Silverblaze]

In case people are curious, here are the mounted combat rules I mentioned: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1050694.html#msg1050694

I guess a Deceit-based Dirty Fighter would work, by your description of Dirty Fighter. Where can I find the original Dirty Fighter for comparison?

I think that Clever Wrestler should stay as a penalty. Otherwise, it can either can make being grappled into a good thing. Clever wording could probably fix that, but not elegantly. And it would probably be balanced to make it a flat 2 shifts all the time, if the variable bonus is a problem. So...

Clever Wrestling: You aren't easy to hold down. Treat all grapples that are made against you as though their strength was two shifts lower.

I think I'll probably give Feint a prereq, but before I do so let me ask: can you already make blocks against physical attacks using the Distraction And Misdirection trapping of Deceit?

I've been trying to avoid the problems of the USE MY APEX SKILL TO NOT GET HIT by giving the various physical defense skills interesting and appropriate restrictions. The guy who defends with Endurance is vulnerable to heavy weapons or The Catch, the guy who defends with Weapons is vulnerable to ranged attacks. Another stunt might suffice to remove the limitations, or perhaps not.

Problem is that I can't think of anything interesting and appropriate for Discipline, and that supplemental action thing is all I've got for Deceit.

I totally agree this needs addressing.  I sadly have no real easy way of doing it.  I'd be morethan happy to work towards the goal however.

I think athletics and discipline/conviction will be the hardest ones (perhaps nigh impossible) to balance out.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wait, why would Athletics be hard? We really don't need to create defense stunts for Athletics, it's already universal.

[Silverblaze]

I meant if it is your apex skill...it'll be hard to nerf it being a great defense.  Since it already is, much like discipline.

Everythign else will be hard, but do able.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oh, I see.

I actually don't really have a problem with Athletics being universal. That's kinda what Athletics is for, you know?

But if it bugs you, you can always just take the appropriate side in the whole "can magic target skills other than Athletics?" debate.

Random idea:

What would people think of a stunt giving Discipline as a defense skill against magical attack only?

What about an upgrade stunt or two to make it into an Athletics-level defense skill?

[Selrach]

I think it sounds reasonable. I no real mechanical reasons to back it up, but the book series does support this point. Every time magic is thrown at most magic users they block with some type of mystic defense. When physical things are thrown at them they tend to dodge, like Darth Vader.

@Way of the Guns: My suggestion is that it allows for declarations about guns. This is very useful when you or your opponent is using guns, but not so much when the opponent is not. For example, a Deagle may be "Powerful with a Small Clip"  tagged for extra damage and compelled to make the gun run out of ammo.

[Sanctaphrax]

The idea was that you could see the magic coming and that that would help you dodge. Like the justification for a Guns stunt letting you dodge bullets with Guns.

I thought you could already make Declarations about guns with Guns. If that's not so, that'd be a good addition to the stunt.

Anyway, I figure that it's been long enough for people to give feedback. The full-scale rewriting will begin soon.

[Selrach]

The Guns trappings allows for Gun declarations about as much as it allows for gun repair and building. That is to say, sort of but not really.  So if you add it to the stunt the stunt would expand two parts of the same trapping and add +1 stress to the damage.

[Sanctaphrax]

Alright, I guess that could work. Will do.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hey, guess what?

I just thought of a way to make physical defense with Conviction work!

It only functions against beings with a catch of holy stuff.

The fluff is that your faith drives them off and protects you from them. It is slightly supernatural, but since no actual supernatural powers are required to create holy stuff I don't think it should be a problem.

Thoughts?

[Selrach]

Isn't that a function of Holy Touch? Hold on...*Goes off and finds books* Are Holy Powers going to be required?

Also for your Discipline stunt it would be better for Lore I think since it has to more with knowledge than ability. Magic detection is covered by lore not discipline.