Author Topic: Cleaning Up The Stunt List  (Read 40569 times)

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2011, 06:35:19 PM »
Possibly but then that is 2 stunts (refresh) for a +2 which seems balance by my book, if you allow the stunts to stack at all (which I personally would it not being a combat ability).
Lush Lifestyle and WBI aren't the equivalent of +2 to resources for 2 stunts. With Lush Lifestyle, WBI is a +2 for everything rolled and Lush Lifestyle also provides it's own 2 shift effect.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 06:37:36 PM by ALurker »

Offline ways and means

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2011, 06:39:54 PM »
So don't let them stack in your games, insist if someone is going to use WBI it is only when buying something rather than declaring they have something (lush lifestyle effect).
Every night has its day.
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Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2011, 06:46:32 PM »
So don't let them stack in your games, insist if someone is going to use WBI it is only when buying something rather than declaring they have something (lush lifestyle effect).
That's how it already works. If you are using Lush Lifestyle you don't have to roll for something equal to your resources. Otherwise you are rolling for higher than your resources and get a +2. It is not like you would often be rolling for something that you have absolutely no need to roll for since you can just declare it.

Edit: Also see my point about chance of failure in the first post your responded to.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 06:50:26 PM by ALurker »

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2011, 06:50:19 PM »
All you need to do is copy the text to a text document, then find and replace =yellow with =purple.

And all I have to do is manually highlight the text to read it.  I'll cowboy up and drag my mouse around, no worries here.  But I did want to point out your horrendous color choice, Sanctaphrax.  :)

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2011, 07:14:33 PM »
It is a deterrent for me since scrolling over it makes my headache worse (my brain reflexively scans it) and if I don't want a worse headache, I either have to highlight it all at once or not read it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2011, 07:32:14 PM »
Alright, I'll change the colour.

Is there an easy way to find and replace, or do I have to Ctrl-F/delete/Ctrl-V my way through the entire text?

I dunno about Wealth Beyond Imagination. Will think about it.

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2011, 07:51:28 PM »
Is there an easy way to find and replace, or do I have to Ctrl-F/delete/Ctrl-V my way through the entire text?
Ctrl-C it to a text editor and then use either Ctrl-R or go over to the replace tab after using Ctrl-F (it depends on the editor). Also most editors have a replace button in a menu at the top of the page.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 07:58:42 PM by ALurker »

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2011, 08:11:59 PM »
Sportsman: Sports are your life. Pick a sport. You may use Athletics with a +2 bonus to play that sport.
That one should probably be in green. One sport is way to specific a circumstance for just a +2, it should be a +3 or +4.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2011, 08:16:44 PM »
Done.

The more I think about my rewrite of Wealth Beyond Imagination, the less I like it. It's just crude and inelegant. I'm not so bothered by ALurker's problem with it, but I still don't like it.

How would people feel about making it into a +2 to buy things that are not illegal?

Green doesn't mean underpowered, it means overly supernatural. Underpowered would be yellow.

I'm actually kind of conflicted about Sportsman. Its usefulness depends so heavily on the campaign its used in. Heck, it could be overpowered in a game where the players are a pro sports team.

Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2011, 08:43:33 PM »
Done.

The more I think about my rewrite of Wealth Beyond Imagination, the less I like it. It's just crude and inelegant. I'm not so bothered by ALurker's problem with it, but I still don't like it.

How would people feel about making it into a +2 to buy things that are not illegal?

Green doesn't mean underpowered, it means overly supernatural. Underpowered would be yellow.

I'm actually kind of conflicted about Sportsman. Its usefulness depends so heavily on the campaign its used in. Heck, it could be overpowered in a game where the players are a pro sports team.
The whole +2 to things that are not illegal doesn't really match Wealth Beyond Imagination's fluff or name, at that point you might as well just call it a new stunt. I would suggest calling it something like Clean and Crisp Dollars Bills. As for whether it is balanced, I'm not sure.

As for Sportsman, I did indeed mean purple (unless we're only talking about Magic Johnson ;D). As for your comments on its power, the same could be said for any "very, very narrowly defined situation." I would have to disagree about it being unbalancing if the players are a pro sport team, since all pro sports players should have a stunt like this one (they have pretty much dedicated their lives to the game after all).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 08:48:27 PM by ALurker »

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2011, 09:00:59 PM »
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Protector: You are an expert at the protection of others. Whenever you use a skill to create a block to protect another character, add two to your roll. (This does not apply to spellcasting).

Needs the situation narrowed a little bit before I'd be happy with it.  Right now this applies to social conflicts, gunfights, fistfights, car chases, anything where you might create a block to protect someone.  At least narrow it to physical or social conflict.

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Traffic Watcher: You really know how to use those rear-view mirrors. Add two to your Alertness skill as long as you are in a car.

Would prefer to move the "noticing stuff" trapping from Alertness to Driving when in a car.

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Excellent Mount: You are very good at carrying other people. Add two to your Athletics skill while being ridden.

Not only is this stunt weird as hell, it also defies logic by making you faster when you carry more weight.  I just don't like it on an instinctual level.  Despite that, I say keep it in the list precisely because it's so out-of-the-box that it hopefully will act as an inspiration for others.

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Five-Fingered Discount: Why buy what you can steal? You may use your Burglary skill instead of your Resources skill to “buy” things. Everything “bought” this way has the aspect “Stolen Property”.

You may use Burglary to make Declarations about having an item.  The GM may assign the Aspect "Stolen Property" to whatever objects/animals/whatever come into play through such a Declaration, however.

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Friends Everywhere: Your network of contacts extends around the world. You never receive a penalty to your contacts skill due to an unfamiliar area.

Penalties to Contacts rolls from being in an unfamiliar area are reduced by two.  I am not a fan of blanket "no penalties ever!" stunts.

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Sanction: Your faith in your boss, be it the archangel Uriel or Colonel Carrington, is absolute. Pick a being. Add one to your Conviction skill when acting on behalf of that being.

I don't see what the deal is with this one, honestly.  It's got a possibly-gameable-but-probably-okay usage restriction, only applies to Conviction, and is only a +1.  Oh wait.

You should add the caveat "does not apply for the purposes of determining maximum spell power, you sneaky bastard wizards."  :)

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Shield Of Dogma: Words are meaningless against your fanatical will. You may use your Conviction skill to defend in social combat.

I don't mind this one either as long as it's got a sufficient usage restriction.  Right now it IS too broad.  I'm not sure how to word this, but if it applied against attacks that threatened the source of your conviction, that'd be okay in my book.  Someone attacking Jack Bauer by tearing down his belief in his country?  Yeah, I could see Jack using Conviction to defend there.  But if they went and dragged him through the mud for, say, sleeping around?  No, he wouldn't be able to use Conviction to defend.

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Data Manipulation: It's easy to fool someone when you have graphs to back you up. Add two to your Deceit skill when you have statistics to back up your lies.

I don't think this needs to be a stunt.  A clever Powerpoint presentation is a Deceit or Scholarship maneuver that places "Clever Powerpoint Presentation" available for tagging on a subsequent Deceit roll.  Meh.  OTOH, I don't see anything horribly off about it either, except for it being very similar to the one Deceit stunt about incorporating a relevant and obvious truth.

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Con Man: You make a living off of lies. Add two to your Deceit skill when using it to get someone to give you money.

Isn't this kind of like Salesman?  :)  I'm just saying there are a lot of +2 effect Deceit stunts floating around here that cover most all of the stuff someone with a high Deceit would be doing anyway.

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Feint: They think thought they had you, but they thought wrong. You may use your Deceit skill to dodge physical attacks.

Ugh.  This lacks a usage restriction and has a lot of the same logic problems that befall "I Made This Myself" that we've already discussed.  I would rather this be "Your Deceit complements skills used for physical defense".  Either that, or something with a better - OR ANY - restriction.  :)   "You may roll Deceit to defend against physical attacks provided you were able to engage your opponent in conversation on your previous action."  In most cases, gunfire makes normal conversation very difficult.

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Wearing An Extremely Trustworthy Face: Some faces are just easy to trust, and as a shapeshifter you have access to many of those. Pick a form other than your natural one. As long as you are in that form and visible to your target, add two to your Deceit skill.

"Oh, I'll just make a 'sparkly vampire' form and have an instant +2 Deceit!  My GM will NEVER suspect me of rampant bullshittery."

Ugh.  This one should be green or something anyway, shouldn't it?  It's not really a Pure Mortal ability.  Anyhoo, I'd posit that this should be moved to Rapport at any rate if one were to already have Mimic Form.  Mimic Form already grants +4 Deceit.

In fact, this stunt is basically just half-price Mimic Form - and looking at it like that, it should share the same material requirements IMO.

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Founded Upon Lies: You are very good at turning innocuous lies into devastating arguments. Whenever you invoke or tag an aspect that you created with a Deceit manoeuvre, add two to your roll in addition to the normal benefits.

You could chain a bunch of maneuvers together and then basically double their value.  This might be overpowered... maybe.  But then there's Dirty Fighter, the Fists stunt that gives a +3 for tagging opponents' Aspects.  Eh... I'd allow this one because it IS limited to Aspects you yourself created.

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Defensive Lies: You can come up with a counterpoint to any point, as long as you don’t worry about honesty. You may use your Deceit skill, unmodified, to defend against everything in social combat.

Needs a restriction, but for the life of me I can't think of one.  Maybe this stunt is useful so long as your attacker hasn't gotten a read on you this scene (Empathy trapping)?

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"Honest" Lawyer: Okay, maybe they don’t exist. But most people would say that you are one, anyway. Add two to your Deceit skill when you are in a legal context.

I kinda like this one.

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Defensive Focus: Your incredible focus makes it easy to avoid the clumsy attacks of your enemies. You may use your Discipline skill to defend against attacks from enemies in the same zone.

AKA all melee and point-blank gunfire?  This is as ridiculous as the Conviction one up above.  HI'd use my fallback tactic of allowing Discipline to complement defense rolls.  Another option might be to restrict it to facing single opponents in one-on-one combat.  Like a duel.

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Reflexive Shield: Magic is the only defence you need. When you are attacked, you may sacrifice your next action to cast a defensive evocation.

I like this one too.  Maybe wizards are badass enough, but this stunt matches how I always saw Harry's defensive magic working.  He'd always interpose his shield bracelet just in time, you know?  I would allow it in my (admittedly wizard-light) game, but I'll defer to those of you with more experience getting your games broken by optimized spellcasters.

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I'll Just Ignore You: Counterarguments are a waste of time. You prefer to simply not listen to the people you disagree with. You may use your Discipline skill for the social defence trapping of Rapport.

If the situation made sense, I'd allow this without a stunt.  Usually such a situation would be one where there wasn't an audience to sway.

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Bartender's Ear: Like any good bartender, you know how to understand drunk people. Add two to your Empathy skill when dealing with people who are under the influence of alcohol.

I think this one's pretty lame.

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Tough as Nails: You don’t seem to feel pain the way normal people do. When an opponent tags or invokes one of your consequences in a physical conflict they only receive +1 to their roll. If they choose to reroll, you may lock down one of his dice and leave him only 3 to reroll.

What's the issue with this one?

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Was That Supposed To Hurt?: You are TOUGH. You don't avoid attacks, you just take them right. Use your Endurance skill to “dodge” attacks.

Again, like the similar stunts above, I would allow a stunt where Endurance complemented physical defense.

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Competition Fighting: You are a martial artist, not a fighter. Add one to your Fists skill as long as you aren't in a real fight.

I think perhaps the restriction could be modified to be "pick a type of organized and structured combat (MMA, boxing, Unseelie Accord-regulated duels).  When participating in such an event you may add 1 to your Fists skill."

I also think it could apply to Weapons or even Guns, for the high noon quick-draw showdown.

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Brutality: Your style of fighting verges upon the sadistic. You may use manoeuvres to inflict consequences. In order to do so, first state the name, level, and type of consequence that you would like to inflict. Then make an ordinary attack with the skill that you are using for the manoeuvre. If that attack hits and inflicts stress equal to or greater than the value of the consequence, then that consequence is inflicted. Extra stress is wasted, as is the entire manoeuvre if it misses or fails to inflict enough stress.

I don't like this one instinctively.  It feels exploitative, although I can't put my finger on it.

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Storm Of Punches: A great warrior fights as well against a thousand enemies as he does against one. You may take a -2 penalty to a Fists attack in order to have that attack affect everyone in the zone (except yourself, of course).

This one depends a lot on GM/group accepting what's legal for area attacks.  I know spray attacks are reviled around here, but IMO area attacks are the realm of magic, explosives, and possibly suppressive automatic fire (aka a maneuver or block, not aimed attacks).  However, I've got no beef with you if you allow Weapons / Guns / Fists to attack zone-wide at -2.  The mechanics have definite precedent and if you're running a high-power game like that, rock on.  \m/

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Threats Of Violence: Fear and pain: they’re like best buddies. You always try to keep them together. Add two to your Intimidation skill when targeting someone who you have physically harmed recently.

I think if you just reworded "recently" to "in the same scene", that would be specific enough for me.

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Clever Wrestling: You've wrestled against incredibly strong things before and you know how to handle it. When in a grapple with something that has a strength power, halve their power bonus to might and round down.

I don't like halving the other guy's bonus.  It's a variable effect and I'd prefer to boost the stunt owner rather than penalize the opponent.  What if the condition wasn't "has a strength power" but rather was a specific grappling action?  "Add two to your Might rolls when defending against a grapple attempt"?  Does that work or is that too far afield from the original text?

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Professional Attitude: You take your job so seriously that it’s hard to believe that you have a life outside of it. Add one to all of your social skills when at work.

"My job is a Monster Hunter!  Gimme that bonus bitches!"

"I don't really have a day job."

"My job is a mob hitman!"

I'd nuke this one.  Disregarding the lack of restriction on what qualifies as a "job", people who take their jobs really seriously are annoying, not sociable.  Perhaps... perhaps, if the stunt was reworded to be "Add one to your Rapport rolls when interacting with someone with the same or decently similar job as you".

And I'd call the stunt "Commiserate".  :)

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Master Of Riddles: Your intelligence lets you run circles around those you talk to. This may take the form of actual riddles, or perhaps just complex logical arguments. You may use your Scholarship skill to make social attacks. Attacks with Scholarship can be defended against with Rapport, Scholarship, and sometimes Empathy.

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Pre-Prepared Counterpoint: You’ve heard that argument before, and you know how to defeat it. You may use your Scholarship skill for social defence.

I am okay with both of these, provided they are properly restricted.  I wanna say "where logic and reasoning make a valid argument", but that's almost as vague as not having a restriction.  I've allowed a PC to spend a FP to use Scholarship in just this fashion before, so I'm not against it.  It just needs some limitations.

I would rename the attack stunt to "Occam's Razor" to reflect the "attack" nature, or possibly "The Only Logical Conclusion".

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Weapon Focus: You've trained to use a specific type of weapon. Choose a type of weapon. Add one to your weapons skill while wielding that type of weapon.

Weapon Specialization: You know how to attack effectively with a specific type of weapon. Choose a type of weapon. Your attacks with that type of weapon inflict two additional stress.

Weapon Mastery: It's easier to defend yourself when you are using your weapon of choice. Pick a type of weapon. When using that type of weapon to make a defense roll, add two to your Weapons skill.

Weapon Focus should only affect attack rolls.  You've got Weapon Mastery for the defense side of things, and Focus only affecting attack rolls is more keeping with the D&D spirit anyhow.  :)

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Mounted Combat: You know how to fight from atop a horse. Add one to your weapons skill while riding an animal.

Just have this be "Use Survival to make physical attacks while riding an animal."  This way you can cover cowboys and knights at the same time.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:06:55 PM by admiralducksauce »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2011, 04:01:16 AM »
@ALurker:

I guess it is kind of a new stunt now. Oh well, I like it better this way.

As for Sportsman: a stunt that everyone has to have is essentially a broken stunt by definition. Which is probably the biggest problem with running DFRPG: Pro Baseball. But whatever, that's not exactly an eventuality I should be worrying about.

I'm actually leaning towards ditching Sportsman entirely. It's never really balanced and it seems more interesting to me to have athletes taking a variety of stunts to cover the various aspects of their sport. I don't think we'd lose much in inspiration value by ditching this.

Thoughts?

@admiralducksauce:

First of all, thanks for the excellent response. Will reply point-by-point next post.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2011, 04:47:47 AM »
Protector: Agree. The plan is to make it apply only to blocks made with a single skill. Obviously, this will involve moving the stunt out of Alertness.

Traffic Watcher: Not a bad idea. Still raises the odd question of how exactly being in a car helps you see, though.

Excellent Mount: Agreed. If anyone has a better idea for a mount-based stunt, I want to hear it. I'd like to keep the inspiration value while losing the WTF-ness.

Five-Fingered Discount: That would also work. Might as well put both versions on the list.

Friends Everywhere: That's the plan.

Sanction: It's not just that. There's also my irrational hatred for this stunt. I don't like it and I don't know why. If people could explain what makes it good/bad in their eyes, that might help. It'd help me avoid arbitrary decisions.

Shield Of Dogma: Was thinking of putting the same restrictions on it as the default Rapport defence. What do you think of that?

Data Manipulation: Point. Might as well get rid of this one. If anyone wants to keep it, let them speak up.

Con Man: They are very similar. And yes, there are a lot of Deceit stunts that basically give +2 to everything most of the time. This has gotta change.

Feint: I was thinking of requiring a supplemental action per opponent for each exchange that you want to use this on. That would represent you making an effort to confuse and misdirect them. Would that make it better? What if it had a prerequisite allowing physical blocks with Deceit?

Wearing An Extremely Trustworthy Face: The sparkly vampire BS you speak of was actually the intended use of this stunt. In retrospect, a bad idea. But I think the basic concept has potential.

Founded Upon Lies: I don't like this one for a few reasons. One is that aspects are generally equal and should remain that way. Another is that it involves too much bookkeeping. Another is that it might be broken. Another is that it boosts skills other than Deceit. Another is that it can give +2 to attacks. Bottom line, this needs a total rewrite.

Defensive Lies: Was thinking of copying Rapport defence with this one too. Rapport defence is broad, but not quite universal, so it kind of includes its own usage restriction.

"Honest" Lawyer: Thanks, but it still needs a nerf to fit with the equivalency between social and physical combat that I am now pushing. I think I'll restrict the bonus to maneuvers.

Defensive Focus: Yeah, this needs a different restriction. Not sure what sort of restriction, though. Maybe I should just bin it.

Reflexive Shield: I like this one too, but it makes me nervous. Was hoping that someone who had used it would say it was fine.

I'll Just Ignore You: I allow Discipline to defend against Intimidation and some Rapport already. This would expand that to the broadness of Rapport defence, like most of the other social defence stunts on this list. My experience with debating suggests that ignoring someone classily enough can work on an audience.

Bartender's Ear: It's not setting the world on fire, I admit. But I don't think it's bad enough to ditch.

Tough As Nails: I think the social version from YS only works against tags to boost attacks. So this should be the same.

Was That Supposed To Hurt?: It'll be getting a restriction, as Tedronai and I discussed earlier in the thread.

Competition Fighting: Eh, not a bad suggestion. Will consider.

Brutality: If you ever manage to put your finger on it, I'm listening.
 
Storm Of Punches: I really think that zone attack stunts should exist, with restrictions. Like "must be using a weapon large enough to cover at least one quarter of the zone" or "must be using a fully-automatic weapon". Because if they don't exist, then magic is so much better than everything else (save explosives) against mobs that it isn't even funny. But if they don't have restrictions, they're too powerful. So I'll be trying to think of a restriction for this. If I can't find one that makes sense, I'll just make it into a spray attack stunt. Though I think we might already have one of those for Fists...

Threats Of Violence: Sure.

Clever Wrestling: Yeah, I don't know what I'm going to do with this one.

Professional Attitude: Will be altered so much as to be unrecognizable.

Master Of Riddles: Need to define exactly what Scholarship attacks do. Otherwise I think it's pretty much fine.

Pre-Prepared Counterpoint: Rapport defence trapping for this one as well. Since Scholarship normally has no social defence trapping at all, I think I might also require a bit of prep work.

Weapon Focus: Would you believe that this stunt was only ever intended to boost attacks? (Unless I misremember). I wrote it wrong, and it's been sitting around like that ever since.

Mounted Combat: Not a bad idea, but a) my mounted combat rules already allow you to use a Survival attack when running someone down with your horse and b) would rather not transplant multiple skills at once.

Offline Arcane257

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2011, 06:38:21 AM »
Reflexive Shield: I like this one too, but it makes me nervous. Was hoping that someone who had used it would say it was fine.

I really like this one and I think it helps fill in a missing gap from the novels well. A friend of mine may be running a one shot soon I will see if I can play test it for you and see if we notice any problems.





Offline ALurker

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Re: Cleaning Up The Stunt List
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2011, 01:13:54 PM »
Brutality: If you ever manage to put your finger on it, I'm listening.
I don't know about him but I just realized another two problems with it. It completely violates the you-get-to-choose-your-own-consequences section of the rules and there are a whole host of problems with violating that. It also allows one to inflict mental or social consequences using a physical attack.

Edit: It also allows one to skip right to the higher consequences which wouldn't normally be possible since a player is allowed to use multiple lower level consequences instead of taking a higher level consequence.

Edit: And it allows one to inflict an Extreme Consequence against their will.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:29:45 PM by ALurker »