Cleaning Up The Stunt List

[Sanctaphrax]

Futuristic Weapons proficiency could just as easily be in Guns. Really, it makes no difference.

I do try to be objective.

I also try to be careful with stunt power, because I'd like the contents of this list to be the closest thing to canon. If the stunts aren't balanced in all games, then that won't happen.

I'm not sure what to do with the overly-supernatural stunts. I like them too much to ditch them, but I don't know where to put them. Not all of them would make good powers.

[Blackblade]

Maybe make an entirely new section for the supernatural ones, after all the others.  Include a caveat about how using them might not be kosher in every game, and you should be good.

[Tsunami]

Do You Like It? I Made It Myself: A weapon you made yourself is a weapon you know really well. Pick melee or ranged. Use Craftsmanship to make attacks and manoeuvres with weapons of that type that you personally built from scratch.

Just to put in my 2 cents, since i was the one who made this one.

Mechanical Benefits:
Transfers Close Combat OR Thrown Weapons Trapping from Weapons to Craftsmanship. IF using a Weapon crafted by the wielder.

That's one trapping under a specific circumstance.
Totally rules legal.

[Silverblaze]

I'm not sure I get your post, first you were advocating not removing anything at all and then you suggest we remove anything that is bad. You are also advocating for trying to be unbiased while admitting being unbiased is impossible. I'm pretty sure everyone already thinks they are unbiased (or admits they might be biased but also believes they're right) and telling them to be less biased isn't going to help anything. Also, shooting for perfection is exactly how one gets close enough. Finally, I'm not really sure why you're are talking about this thread as if we've been having really heated arguments. So far this thread has been quite civil and productive.

I think what I want is for people to keep stunts in the list that seem unbalanced and place warning labels on them or something to explain a lack of balance, but to let people use them for inspiration for other stunts in their own games (even bad ideas can inspire good ideas) or use them and throw caustion to the wind.  I more or less wish to say that being unbiased is important but theoretically impossible.  i just want us to look at it from a point of view that we aren't setting rules, just coming up with nifty mostly balanced ideas.  the bad ones (or things percieved as bad shouldn't be removed).

In  regards to the bolded part.  I sincerely did not think anything I wrote would imply i felt that way.  Apologies?  I guess.

[ways and means]

I think any stunt that follows the stunt rules and makes some sense then they are rules ok and come under the scrutiny of the particular gm. I don't think there is as such a mean gaming groups or gm (the deviation is too high for such an average to be meaningful) so balancing stunts for the particular no-existent groups tastes dosen't seem to be that good an idea in my opinion.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I'm not sure what to do with the overly-supernatural stunts. I like them too much to ditch them, but I don't know where to put them. Not all of them would make good powers.

Put a Must saying something like this stunt cannot be taken with the Plain Mortal template.  Problem solved.

[ALurker]

Just to put in my 2 cents, since i was the one who made this one.

Mechanical Benefits:
Transfers Close Combat OR Thrown Weapons Trapping from Weapons to Craftsmanship. IF using a Weapon crafted by the wielder.

That's one trapping under a specific circumstance.
Totally rules legal.

You might have meant it that way but that is not what the stunt says. Melee weapons include things that are governed by Fists, which makes it a trapping and a half (or maybe two full, I would have to check). As for ranged bit, you might have meant thrown weapons but you wrote ranged weapons instead, which covers any weapons usable at range including guns.

[ALurker]

I think what I want is for people to keep stunts in the list that seem unbalanced and place warning labels on them or something to explain a lack of balance, but to let people use them for inspiration for other stunts in their own games (even bad ideas can inspire good ideas) or use them and throw caustion to the wind.  I more or less wish to say that being unbiased is important but theoretically impossible.  i just want us to look at it from a point of view that we aren't setting rules, just coming up with nifty mostly balanced ideas.  the bad ones (or things percieved as bad shouldn't be removed).

If we don't remove stunts we know are bad, then the entire list begins to look rather shoddy and if the entire list looks shoddy people tend to just write it off. We could certainly make a separate list for stunts that could serve as inspiration but leaving them in the main list is a bad idea.

[ways and means]

If we don't remove stunts we know are bad, then the entire list begins to look rather shoddy and if the entire list looks shoddy people tend to just write it off. We could certainly make a separate list for stunts that could serve as inspiration but leaving them in the main list is a bad idea.

Define Bad Stunt without using subjective terms? Bad is relative, relative in Dresden files means according to the table and the gm. The only absolute guideline is the stunt creation rules and even the raw ignores those occasionally. Simply stunts you think are overpowered other people might think are perfectly balanced, a stunt can be bad and good at the same time, so the question stops becoming about the stunts itself but about who is the arbiter of the good.

[Sanctaphrax]

I more or less agree with ALurker here.

There is some ambiguity in what makes a good stunt, but not an infinite amount. So trying to sort out the dreck isn't worthless.

It's not possible to follow the rules legalistically, because as ways and means says they're more like guidelines.

I'm trying to avoid getting rid of stunts completely, since that has the anti-inspirational effects mentioned by Silverblaze. I'd rather add restrictions or reduce bonuses.

Tsunami's proposed rewrite of Do You...etc looks pretty good mechanically, but I do kinda doubt the flavour. Making your own knife wouldn't let you fight with it if you have no skill at knife fighting, would it?

Unless the knife was special somehow...I think that maybe this can be made to work.

But I've grown attached to the modifying version, so I don't think I'll get rid of it even if we come up with a new version.

Anyway, the solution proposed by The Mighty Buzzard for the supernatural-ness problem doesn't help. Pure Mortals had no reason to take the stunts I'm thinking of anyway. And there are mechanical differences between stunts and powers that make mixing them up a poor idea in my opinion.

Ideally, Pure Mortals would be able to take any stunt. But some of those stunts would be pointless, since they'd expand capabilities that a mortal doesn't have.

The problem is more or less just flavour. Some of the stunts don't feel like stunts.

[Tsunami]

You might have meant it that way but that is not what the stunt says. Melee weapons include things that are governed by Fists, which makes it a trapping and a half (or maybe two full, I would have to check). As for ranged bit, you might have meant thrown weapons but you wrote ranged weapons instead, which covers any weapons usable at range including guns.

I'm pretty clear on the fact that you misunderstood the description... which is why i wrote a totally fluffless explanation.

Tsunami's proposed rewrite of Do You...etc looks pretty good mechanically, but I do kinda doubt the flavour. Making your own knife wouldn't let you fight with it if you have no skill at knife fighting, would it?

Unless the knife was special somehow...I think that maybe this can be made to work.

Fluff:
Making a good Sword requires you to know what makes a good Sword.
Knowing what makes a good Sword requires a knowledge of how a Sword works.
Knowing how a Sword works requires certain Skill with it.

Sword is just an example here.
It's a bit forced, but then there are a lot of stunts that are like that.
As for the Special Knife. Make it "Weapons you made yourself, for yourself"


In the end i don't really care. Since i only see the stunt list as a source of inspiration in any case.

[ALurker]

I'm pretty clear on the fact that you misunderstood the description... which is why i wrote a totally fluffless explanation.

So what you're saying is what the stunt means in plain English is not what it is supposed to mean. Just because you didn't write what you meant doesn't mean you can say it means something entirely different from what it actually says and then claim others misinterpreted it.

Fluff:
Making a good Sword requires you to know what makes a good Sword.
Knowing what makes a good Sword requires a knowledge of how a Sword works.
Knowing how a Sword works requires certain Skill with it.

Sword is just an example here.
It's a bit forced, but then there are a lot of stunts that are like that.
As for the Special Knife. Make it "Weapons you made yourself, for yourself"

So the best swordsmith in the world would automatically be the best swordsmen in the world with the swords they made if they had this stunt, even if they had absolutely no skill at wielding any other kind of sword. That doesn't make sense.

Also, knowing how a sword works doesn't necessarily require any skill with it, there is a difference between knowledge and ability. However, knowing how a sword works might give you a minor boost wielding it.

Another example of this, a physicist might know the exact math behind pitching a baseball but that doesn't mean they can suddenly pitch like a pro. It might help them pitch a little better, however.

[ways and means]

So being the best swordsmith in the world would automatically make you the best swordsmen in the world with the swords you made, even if you had absolutely no skill at wielding any other kind of sword. That doesn't make sense.

Also, knowing how a sword works doesn't necessarily require any skill with it, there is a difference between knowledge and ability. However, knowing how a sword works might give you a minor boost wielding it.

Well not without a stunt so not automatically, but a stunt is justification all in itself. Call it training or call it a knack but as long as it is not physically impossible a stunt can help.

[ALurker]

Well not without a stunt so not automatically, but a stunt is justification all in itself.

It is justification but it is justification that doesn't make sense which is the problem.

I meant with the stunt but I seemed to have failed to write that in, I'll go change that.

[admiralducksauce]

What about Craftmanship complementing skill rolls made with weapons you made yourself?  Broaden the application to include every possible weapon, but don't switch the skill trappings.