Would like some help making a gun mage

[computerking]

I can't get Ricochet Rabbit out of my mind. "Good thing I loaded up on my Mallet to the Head bullets!"

If you're too young to get the reference, Don't remind me, I'm Old!:)

[Haru]

  You're also dealing with some spells which will give the victim two defense rolls - one to 'dodge' the bullet (make you miss) and a second to resist the magic (depends on the spell used). 

I was thinking primarily of Maneuvers.  Most of those will probably (I'm sure exceptions are possible) be resisted separately from the bullet itself.

I don't think so. You're not shooting a weapon:2 bullet that does a magic effect, you are using a magical item that you target with your gun skill. If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.

[Tedronai]

If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.

It could also be a 'special effect bullet', dealing stress as a weapon:0 while using the potion strength as a maneuver.

[Haru]

It could also be a 'special effect bullet', dealing stress as a weapon:0 while using the potion strength as a maneuver.

Yes, that would be a possibility, but I really don't like it. I think it is better if the player has to choose between maneuver and attack.

[UmbraLux]

I don't think so. You're not shooting a weapon:2 bullet that does a magic effect, you are using a magical item that you target with your gun skill. If it is a "maneuver bullet", it wouldn't do any stress at all, just the maneuver. The gun is mostly flavour, except for the part where you can use your gun skill instead of discipline. The gun might be used for the usual weapon:2 attacks like any gun, but not in addition to an enchanted item or potion effect.

From what I've seen on these forums, this is very open to interpretation.

Mechanically, I do prefer the simpler model.  However I'm not certain I like the narrative of getting shot with a bullet and Hallucinating (aspect created by a maneuver) with no other effect.  I'm also not sure I like the idea of "dodging" a gunshot with Discipline...which is probably what a hallucinatory maneuver would usually be resisted by. 

In general, I don't really like weapons as enchanted items.  I don't think DFRPG is built to accomplish it very well.  That said, it is possible.  You simply need to choose between simple mechanics or narrative harmony. 

[Tedronai]

Mechanically, I do prefer the simpler model.  However I'm not certain I like the narrative of getting shot with a bullet and Hallucinating (aspect created by a maneuver) with no other effect.  I'm also not sure I like the idea of "dodging" a gunshot with Discipline...which is probably what a hallucinatory maneuver would usually be resisted by. 

Obviously the bullet 'dissolves' in midair, and the target is instead struck by a magical spell-construct which then goes to work, inducing hallucinations.

[sinker]

My inclination would be to say that either defense is appropriate. If they get out of the way then there's no reason for them to resist the effect, and if they resist then there's no other effect, so there's no reason for them to dodge. While the attack defines the defense, there's no reason why there couldn't be several different ways for the defense to function (just as there are several different ways to defend against a weapon or fists).

[UmbraLux]

Obviously the bullet 'dissolves' in midair, and the target is instead struck by a magical spell-construct which then goes to work, inducing hallucinations.

So spells dissolve lead?  How could I have missed that?!   

I agree with your meaning - you can explain it away.  The explanations all tend to boil down to fiat though.  Not as elegant a solution as I'd like to find. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm on Haru's side here. The gun is just fluff, making the effect weaker because the player decides to flavour it as bullet-based strikes me as awful.

Hexing shouldn't be a problem. It's just compels, and compels are not a bad thing.

As for the actual question of the thread, listen to computerking. His answer is correct, and if you care at all about optimization you should follow his afterthought and boost your Crafting strength.

PS: Be careful with the balance here; Crafting is possibly the most powerful thing in this game. Weapon 10 bullets and 10 shift maneuvers are impressive, but roughly on par with an equivalent amount of Refresh spent on other stunts and powers. The real worry is blocks and Thaumaturgy: a 10-shift version of Harry's coat can make a character incredibly hard to hurt while a 10-shift Thaumaturgical skill replacement can make other characters obsolete. And 10 shifts of Orbius can convince me to firebomb your house.

[Revlid]

Mortal practitioners have problems with tech.  Gard is an immortal vaklyrie.  See it now?

Lifespan doesn't play into it; it's free will that matters, something mortals have in abundance. I personally doubt that Gard lacks it.

Consider also that she offers Murphy (a Pure Mortal) a job as a valkyrie. It's possible that becoming one involves losing your free will, but we simply don't know enough to say for sure.
---------------
I don't think that dormant enchanted items cause shortout in mechanical equipment. It is the friction between free will and a mortal's magical power that causes "mana static", something not present in mindless objects, particularly those that are usable by anyone. Until the bullet goes off (and perhaps even after that point), machines will be unaffected by its magical potential (or release). Bullets are (with a few exceptions, generally either deliberate or shoddily-made, neither of which are a concern here) not damaged by the firing of the gun; they are pushed out by compressed gas, not the explosion that compresses it. Any carved runes or painted symbols or stored magical energies should be just fine right up until it hits some sucker 'twixt the eyes. Or turns into a demon mid-shot. Or explodes into a rainbow burst of magical energy, or what have you.

So yeah. If you do Maneuvers with Guns, your opponent can try to resist with Athletics or another, more appropriate skill (depending on whether they dodge the bullet or take its "effect" head on).

Spend a least few item slots on turning something into a crafting focus item for your "potions". It really is a good investment.

[sinker]

Of note all of this talk about guns and hexing is moot. For one qlawdat has clarified several times that the GM is ok with this concept. For two they aren't even playing in the same universe. It's possible that in this other universe there is no hexing, or that hexing effects cats and dogs. All of that is kinda up to qlawdat's GM isn't it?

[Dravokian]

as to the dodge vs resist the way id do it is with 2 rolls for the defender. Id have them make an athletics vs your guns to get out of the way of the bullet, thus never being effected by the spell. If the bullet hits then id have them make a resist roll vs the spell (potion str). Endurance vs str for spells like fireball, discipline vs str for hallucinations, conviction vs str for mind control (If your a Law Breaker), ect ect. That way they can dodge the bullet itself and still have a chance to reduce the damage if actually hit by it. That would help in my game to reduce the damage down to a more manageable amount. Of course it could also skyrocket it if the resisting character has a low resist roll but that is no different then if a wizard uses a 8 refresh lighting bolt vs a character with no endurence... there gonna do a lot of damage. I'd also make you spend time in character building your potion bullets... of course the ones in creation are free but Id make you build the reloads. Also a failed roll might not mean that you dont create one. It might be a dud or a backfiring bullet... the compel options are very interesting that way.

[qlawdat]

Of note all of this talk about guns and hexing is moot. For one qlawdat has clarified several times that the GM is ok with this concept. For two they aren't even playing in the same universe. It's possible that in this other universe there is no hexing, or that hexing effects cats and dogs. All of that is kinda up to qlawdat's GM isn't it?

Yes.  Thank you.  My GM does not care about any hexing happening to my guns.  They are made specifically for gun magery, and are immune to hexing. 

as to the dodge vs resist the way id do it is with 2 rolls for the defender. Id have them make an athletics vs your guns to get out of the way of the bullet, thus never being effected by the spell. If the bullet hits then id have them make a resist roll vs the spell (potion str). Endurance vs str for spells like fireball, discipline vs str for hallucinations, conviction vs str for mind control (If your a Law Breaker), ect ect. That way they can dodge the bullet itself and still have a chance to reduce the damage if actually hit by it. That would help in my game to reduce the damage down to a more manageable amount. Of course it could also skyrocket it if the resisting character has a low resist roll but that is no different then if a wizard uses a 8 refresh lighting bolt vs a character with no endurence... there gonna do a lot of damage. I'd also make you spend time in character building your potion bullets... of course the ones in creation are free but Id make you build the reloads. Also a failed roll might not mean that you dont create one. It might be a dud or a backfiring bullet... the compel options are very interesting that way.

Having the target roll twice seems excessive.  The gun will fire the prepped spell/potion, but once the spell leaves the gun it will function exactly the same as the spell or potion.  I do not want to be punished for having an idea.   

I'm on Haru's side here. The gun is just fluff, making the effect weaker because the player decides to flavour it as bullet-based strikes me as awful.

Hexing shouldn't be a problem. It's just compels, and compels are not a bad thing.

As for the actual question of the thread, listen to computerking. His answer is correct, and if you care at all about optimization you should follow his afterthought and boost your Crafting strength.

PS: Be careful with the balance here; Crafting is possibly the most powerful thing in this game. Weapon 10 bullets and 10 shift maneuvers are impressive, but roughly on par with an equivalent amount of Refresh spent on other stunts and powers. The real worry is blocks and Thaumaturgy: a 10-shift version of Harry's coat can make a character incredibly hard to hurt while a 10-shift Thaumaturgical skill replacement can make other characters obsolete. And 10 shifts of Orbius can convince me to firebomb your house.

I didn't know you could use the Thaumaturgy to replace other skills.  Interesting.   I had also skipped the Orbius skill, and dear god is that powerful.  Sheesh. 

[Dravokian]

Having the target roll twice seems excessive.  The gun will fire the prepped spell/potion, but once the spell leaves the gun it will function exactly the same as the spell or potion.  I do not want to be punished for having an idea.   

I misunderstood the idea here... my apologies I thought the gun still fired bullets that would damage and then the spell went off... if the gun only fires the spell then id have 1 roll to resist the spell.

Also to the idea of Hexing if the GM running the game had an issue with it, which he doesn't, the easy fix is to make the gun an enchanted item. Then it is magic that only appears to be tech, but is actually a magical item in a sense.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I had also skipped the Orbius skill, and dear god is that powerful.  Sheesh.

Not as much as you'd think.  I mean anyone can counter it with a hastily drawn and invoked circle in one exchange.  Even Plain Mortals if they've been taught how.  That's why I don't have as much problem as some with DoT spells.

Orbius cast at anyone with knowledge of circles is going to cost like an eight shift spell, be resisted like a three shift spell, and can be neutralized with no stress being taken the very next exchange.  It's only really good for mooks and beings that can't make a circle for whatever reason.