Author Topic: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]  (Read 3165 times)

Offline Revlid

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New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« on: October 14, 2011, 11:58:42 PM »
MULTIPLE BODIES [–7]
Description: Two heads are better than one, and many hands make light work; you can split off a single copy of yourself, which shares your memories and abilities. Depending on the upgrades taken, this power could represent the fission of an ooze demon, the splitting up of a swarm of lesser creatures, or even the magical duplicative hair of Sun Wukong.
Skills Affected: Physical skills.   
Effects:
Cloning Blues. You may produce a single, exact copy of yourself as a supplemental action. This copy is indistinguishable physically, though mystical observation shows it to be a construct of ectoplasm. The copy has the same skills, stunts and powers as you, and has your memories at the time of creation; the only mechanical difference (besides the normal vulnerabilities of ectoplasmic constructs) is that their High Concept is “Copy of a [Original High Concept]”. You have no special ability to communicate with your copy (outside of invoking their High Concept to guess what they’ll do next), and do not learn what they learn unless you recall them (requiring a free action while in physical contact), at which point they dissolve into ectoplasm and you gain all their memories since they were created. You and your copy have separate stress tracks; however, your supply of consequences remains the same, and must be split between the two of you. You do not cash out (see page 206) for consequences suffered by your copy. If your copy is killed (rather than being recalled) you may not generate a new one until the next scene (if you are killed, your copy immediately dissolves into ectoplasm). Note that despite having the same powers as you, your copy does not acquire their own item slots from spellcraft powers, and cannot create its own copies through this power.

We Are Many [-1]. This upgrade increases the number of copies that you can have active at the same time by one. You may take this upgrade multiple times, increasing the number of potential copies by one for each purchase. Note that, should one of your copies be killed, it does not completely remove your ability to create new ones until the next scene; it simply reduces the maximum number you can create this scene by one.

Von Neumann’s Magic [-2]. The We Are Many upgrade is a prerequisite for this one. Your copies can create copies of their own using this power. They use the creating copy’s memories, rather than your own, but are otherwise created just as described in Cloning Blues. They are still your copies, and therefore cannot exceed the number of copies you may have active at once.

Distant Recall [-1]. This upgrade allows you to recall your copy from a distance as a free action, instantly dissolving it into the ectoplasm from which it was formed. If you have a Hive Mind (below), this upgrade becomes free.

Hive Mind [-2]. You and your copy share minds. You know everything they know, and vice-versa, allowing real-time sharing of information and memories without the need for recall. This has numerous applications, and adds two shifts to any maneuver made by you or your copy to co-ordinate an action with the other (see page 208). However, with this upgrade, you and your copy share the same mental stress track; this means that you are treated as the same target for the purposes of psychic attacks, allowing them to damage both of you at once. In addition, you and your copy both suffer from the taggable aspect produced by taking a mental consequence, regardless of which of you actually “spent” the consequence in question. Other appropriate temporary aspects might also "spill over" in this way.

Ontological Inertia [-0]. This upgrade cannot be taken by characters with positive refresh. Upon taking this upgrade, your copies become just as “real” as you are (arguably, not very), making the question of who the original is rather moot. As a result, rather than imploding into ectoplasm upon your death, your copies will remain intact (and may produce another copy to replace you, if they have that ability). This will sometimes result in one of your copies acquiring true independence, at which point it becomes a separate character with the ability to create its own roster of copies; a number of creatures native to the Nevernever reproduce in this manner.

Split Skills [+4]. Rather than being able to produce exact duplicates of yourself, you must split your power amongst the bodies you produce, resulting in a set of weaker copies. Whenever you produce a copy, all of its skills default to Mediocre (+0). You must provide it with skills by reducing your own and adding an equivalent number of skill points to its sheet (see page 65). For example, by reducing a Superb (+5) skills to Good (+3), you would acquire two skill points to raise one of your copy’s skills to Fair (+2). Skill points taken from one skill need not be spent on that same skill; it is acceptable to reduce your Might in order to increase your copy’s Lore. Your copy may not have any skill ratings higher than your original score in that skill. Keep a record of your character’s original skill ratings; they return to their previous level once the copy is recalled (if the copy is killed, it is treated as being recalled one scene later).
   
Split Power [+Varies]. This upgrade provides you with refresh equal to half the total refresh cost of your supernatural powers (excluding Multiple Bodies, but including any refresh spent on We Are Many), rounded down. Whenever you produce a copy, you must total up the cost of your supernatural powers (excluding Multiple Bodies) and divide it by two. This is the new refresh cost of the powers you and your copy may possess. You must first spend this refresh on powers that are core to your High Concept (i.e. (i.e. Living Dead for a Zombie or Lawbreaker for a Warlock), and you cannot produce a copy without such powers. Often, this will result in a simple reduction of power; splitting Supernatural Toughness into two iterations of Inhuman Toughness, or reducing Evocation and Refinement into two iterations of Channelling. You cannot provide your copy with supernatural powers you do not possess any version of. If you have any spare refresh, you may temporarily assign it to appropriate powers for you or your copy.

Keep a record of your character’s original powers; they return to normal once the copy is recall (if the copy is killed, it is treated as being recalled one scene later). If you can produce more than one copy, then you must divide the refresh cost of your supernatural powers evenly again between yourself and each copy, each time you produce one. It would probably be wise to produce a number of "templates" based on the kind of power-sets you could give different numbers of clones, to save time.

----------------------------------------
Incidentally, the Shen work pretty well if you stat them out as a single Kong-sized version with Multiple Bodies, the Split Power and Ontological Inertia upgrade, and We Are Many x3. A Kong can then split off into a pair of Gorillas, a trio of baboons, or a quintet of Chimps, with its power being reduced appropriately with each split.

SHEN
High Concept: Demonic Poo-Flinging Kong
Skills
Fists: Good (+3) Might: Good (+3)
Most other physical skills are Fair, the rest are Mediocre.
Powers
Breath Weapon [–2] (incendiary poo)
Wings [–1]
Supernatural Strength [–4]
Supernatural Toughness [–4]
Inhuman Recovery [–2]
*The Catch [+2]: Only functions against mundane sources of damage.
Hulking Size [–2]
Multiple Bodies [-7]
*We Are Many (x3) [-3]
*Von Neumann's Magic [-2]
*Ontological Inertia [-0]
*Split Power [+8]
Stress
Mental oo, Physical ooooooooo, Social oo
Total Refresh Cost: –17
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 09:19:28 PM by Revlid »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 01:42:08 AM »
Incomplete sentence ending Cloning Blues.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Revlid

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »
Ah, thanks! Fixed.

Thoughts on the power itself?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 03:26:58 AM »
Very ambitious! I like it.

No idea whether it's balanced or not, though. Too much rests on how much control you have over the clones.

Plus, there's a real lack of things to compare this to. So it's hard to evaluate.

A few thoughts:

-Given how expensive making one clone is, I think making more than one clone might be too cheap.
-Right now there is no mechanical reason not to take Distant Recall if you have Hive Mind. I suggest that you reduce the cost of Hive Mind to 1 and make Distant Recall a prereq to avoid false choices.
-Maybe the ability to absorb memories should be an optional extra. I don't think that every clone-maker can do that.
-I'm pretty sure that Split Powers needs some editing. It currently gives 4 refresh for nothing if you have no other powers.
-Right now, it looks as though you could take Split Skills and Split Powers and so reduce the cost of the power below 0. That's not good.

Incidentally, the Shen example is pretty excellent. Thumbs up.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 04:06:23 AM »
Hive Mind would seem to interact problematically with the Cashing Out clause of Cloning Blues, causing you to suffer a consequence but denying you the normal resulting FP.

Further, I am hesitant of that clause in its own right, as exemplified by a hypothetical area attack hitting yourself and your clone at the same time then taking you out far more easily than it otherwise would.  And god forbid you have more than one clone with you.
(just think of what would happen if you had 3 clones with you and get hit by an area attack that would force you and them to each take a mere mild consequence: either you're taken out the next time you get hit, or you're losing clones)
I'd recommend instead giving each clone a default of only one mild consequence (+ those from high skills) of its own, and having upgrades grant more consequences, but then not have those consequences count against those available to you.
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Offline Revlid

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 04:12:40 AM »
No idea whether it's balanced or not, though. Too much rests on how much control you have over the clones.

Plus, there's a real lack of things to compare this to. So it's hard to evaluate.
Yeah, that's been a problem throughout. I hate having to go with gut-feeling.

-Given how expensive making one clone is, I think making more than one clone might be too cheap.
Being able to have two bodies is an awesome advantage over having just one. You can do research while your copy hits the streets, or the two of you can work together on something, or you can produce a perfect alibi, or you can "skip scenes" while actually remaining in play, etc. Having three is even better (obviously)... but it's not an overwhelming upgrade. Most applications of this power would only really require one additional body, and you don't start producing an overwhelming combat advantage until you've got 4 or more of you running around, at which point you need to be at 12 refresh (i.e. Submerged + two Major Milestones) with no other powers to still be a PC. Of course, you could get a discount through Split Skills and Split Power; but splitting your Skills or Powers (assuming you have refresh to blow on the latter) across 4+ people likely won't result in anything threatening.

tl;dr - Two bodies are exponentially better than one. Three bodies are not exponentially better than two.

-Right now there is no mechanical reason not to take Distant Recall if you have Hive Mind. I suggest that you reduce the cost of Hive Mind to 1 and make Distant Recall a prereq to avoid false choices.
The problem here is that they should be separate choices (not every hivemind is going to be pulling a Ganger on us), but that there's no real reason to take Distant Recall if you have Hive Mind. Or at least, no reason that's worth -1 refresh. Therefore, I've switched the discount to Distant Recall, to make the "you can take this for free" thing a bit more clear.

-Maybe the ability to absorb memories should be an optional extra. I don't think that every clone-maker can do that.
Mmmmaybe. I can't think of anywhere that I'd rule that to be the case, though.

-I'm pretty sure that Split Powers needs some editing. It currently gives 4 refresh for nothing if you have no other powers.
No, it doesn't.

"This upgrade cannot provide more refresh than you have spent on other supernatural powers (i.e. not including Multiple Bodies); a character with only Multiple Bodies and Claws would receive just +1 refresh for having to split his power."

-Right now, it looks as though you could take Split Skills and Split Powers and so reduce the cost of the power below 0. That's not good.
Good catch! Fixed with one final addition to Split Power, I believe.

"Even if you take both this upgrade and Split Skills, you cannot reduce the overall refresh cost of Multiple Bodies below -1."

Incidentally, the Shen example is pretty excellent. Thumbs up.
Thanks! It only struck me that the power could be used for them after I'd more-or-less finished writing it; I was thinking of "big guy budding off lots of little guys" and the Shen (initially, at least) seemed to have that backwards.

Although they are supposed to run in packs of 20-odd chimps, forming one Kong, while my version results in a pack of 5 chimps, forming one Kong. So maybe it's not the best example.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2011, 04:21:44 AM »
No, it doesn't.

"This upgrade cannot provide more refresh than you have spent on other supernatural powers (i.e. not including Multiple Bodies); a character with only Multiple Bodies and Claws would receive just +1 refresh for having to split his power."

ie.  If you have Multiple Bodies, your primary body can gain up to 4 refresh of other powers for free.


hmmm...might also want an upgrade that would allow all resulting clones to be 'equals' with the original, such that there effectively is no original, clones being able to produce more clones so long as the total number did not surpass the shared limit, 'points' lost to clone death being reclaimed to a common 'pool' at the appropriate time, rather than to the original
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Offline Revlid

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2011, 04:23:49 AM »
Hive Mind would seem to interact problematically with the Cashing Out clause of Cloning Blues, causing you to suffer a consequence but denying you the normal resulting FP.

Further, I am hesitant of that clause in its own right, as exemplified by a hypothetical area attack hitting yourself and your clone at the same time then taking you out far more easily than it otherwise would.  And god forbid you have more than one clone with you.
(just think of what would happen if you had 3 clones with you and get hit by an area attack that would force you and them to each take a mere mild consequence: either you're taken out the next time you get hit, or you're losing clones)
I'd recommend instead giving each clone a default of only one mild consequence (+ those from high skills) of its own, and having upgrades grant more consequences, but then not have those consequences count against those available to you.
Sorry, the Hive Mind thing was written in a rather confusing fashion, so I don't think we're working on the same page. I've reworded it now. How does that look?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2011, 04:30:28 AM »
Sorry, the Hive Mind thing was written in a rather confusing fashion, so I don't think we're working on the same page. I've reworded it now. How does that look?

Looks okay, but might still want to emphasize the exception to the particular Cashing Out clause.
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Offline Revlid

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2011, 04:36:32 AM »
ie.  If you have Multiple Bodies, your primary body can gain up to 4 refresh of other powers for free.
Ah, that is true... But then you're effectively not getting a discount on Multiple Bodies, and (when using that power) have to split those 4 "free" points. To be honest, I'm not sure how to remove this as an issue, beyond reminding GMs that supernatural powers should be appropriate to High Concepts, not just slapped on because you have the refresh available.

Of course, this does allow you to take Multiple Bodies [-7], Split Power [+4], Evocation [-3], Refinement [-1].
And then split up into two people, each with Channeling [-2], one specializing in Fire, the other in Ice.
And then you've basically got Koume and Kotake.
...
I think I'm okay with that, actually.


hmmm...might also want an upgrade that would allow all resulting clones to be 'equals' with the original, such that there effectively is no original, clones being able to produce more clones so long as the total number did not surpass the shared limit, 'points' lost to clone death being reclaimed to a common 'pool' at the appropriate time, rather than to the original
I'll get around to that, I guess.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2011, 04:40:08 AM »
Hm. No idea how I missed that clause in Split Powers.

I still think the rebate is worryingly large, though. And there's the issue Tedronai mentioned to contend with as well.

I agree that the difference between 1 clone and no clones is bigger than the difference between 1 clone and two clones. But I don't think it's 7 times bigger.

It might be good for the cost per clone to decrease the more clones you have.

Maybe 2-3 refresh for the second clone, 2 refresh for the third and fourth, 1 for 5-10, and 1/2 beyond that. So for the low, low price of 30ish refresh, you can make 30 clones!

This would never happen for a PC, but it'd be a cool trick for a Big Bad.

PS: My desire for a no-memory-absorption option is based on the idea that this power could be used for creating new yous rather than just having multiple bodies for a single you.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2011, 04:45:05 AM »
The problem with Split Powers is that, if you can at all justify having any powers beyond Multiple Bodies, there's absolutely no reason, ever, not to take the first 4 refresh worth of them, because they're free, even if you don't end up giving any of them, even downgraded versions, to your clones.
There's nothing to be gained/preserved by NOT taking it.
And that's a Bad Thing (tm).
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2011, 04:46:29 AM »
To elaborate on Tedronai's point:

For 8 refresh, you can either have two bodies with 1 refresh worth of goodies each or one body with 5 points of goodies and one with 0. The latter is clearly better in most situations, sad to say.

This problem reverses itself when the total refresh cost gets higher. My theoretical Big Bad who makes 30 clones for 30 refresh has to choose between 31 bodies with 27 points of power apiece* or 31 bodies with 1 point of power apiece if he has 57 total refresh to spend.

For this reason, I suggest that the bonus from Split Powers be dependent on the refresh spent on extra clones and other powers.

*This strikes me as broken. Maybe should do something about it.

Offline Revlid

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 04:51:26 AM »
Ah, eff, I see the problem with Split Powers now.

Screw it. It's well past my bed-time, I'm not thinking straight. I'll deal with it tomorrow.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Shapeshifting Power: Multiple Bodies [-7]
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2011, 04:53:49 AM »
Good idea.

I need to sleep too, actually.

Good night.